SERIOUS issue with tenant

A

Alana55

Registered User
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15
Hello everyone,
My sister (who is pregnant and beyond stressed at this point) has a nightmare tenant that I need some advice on.

Her tentant is a single mum with one child who reduced her rent twice of her own accord (breaking the terms of the lease). This crucified my sister and her family as they had to pay rent and a mortgage (they only moved as the commute to work was too long). They have always been very good to this tenant and even agreed to the reduced rent because it was better than nothing. Then she decides to start skipping weeks and not paying at all.

They went through the proper procedure and issued a notice to vacate. Lease was up and tenant said she wouldn’t move without her deposit. She owed nearly 3 times the value of the deposit in rent so they refused (they didn’t have the money in any case). She brought them in front of the PTRB for holding onto her deposit they fought back with a claim of over-holding in the property and rent arrears.

My sister won the case and the tenant was ordered to pay ‘x’ amount of rent arrears. They know they haven’t a hope of getting any money from her but just want her out.

The tenant has now decided she wants to appeal and hasn’t paid a cent in rent for weeks – she owes them close on €2k at the moment and its killing them financially – they have a young family of their own. She is getting a cheque from social welfare of more than two thirds of her rent every week and is just holding onto it for herself. My sister has informed the social welfare officer that she is not paying her rent and they say they can’t chase everyone – lack of resources etc…

They have had no choice but to engage a solicitor – but he is talking about issuing letters and they know she won’t pay any heed.

Their savings are gone trying to fund the situation and it seems they can’t do anything.

ANY advice at all would be much appreciated!
 
If you want to go down the nice civilised legal route then you will wait for many months and won't get a single penny.
Solicitors are a complete waste of time and money.

I cannot advise on this website other means of persuading her to leave.....
 
CWO's were transferred to the Dept of Social Welfare earlier this year or last year.
 
Years ago (90s) my mother had a tenant who didn't pay and the community welfare officer issued cheques directly to my mother. Not sure if this arrangement is still possible. She never received the tenant's share of the rent but at least it was something. I'm wondering if your sister has access to the property and can carry out repairs and maintenance?
 
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This story doesn't make much sense to me. The HSE pays this not the Welfare, and they just cut the payment if the LL reports they aren't getting it. As its fraud. Not only that but that would effect their dole payment also. I don't see how you can get a PRTB judgement that fast, or how they can be many times the deposit in arrears in weeks not months. Unless this story has been going over months.

The law does not protect the LL from big loss's in cases like this, as it can't act quickly enough. Anything the LL does to get the tenant out risks a hefty fine. So the risk of the fine has to balanced against the LL loss's if they don't act.
 
Your sister made a mistake when she didn't give the deposit back. She can still do this to get her out. Tell her about 5 days after dole day (when the funds are low for this lady) that if she packs her bags she will get x amount in cash. Make her sign a document stating that she has left the property on this day. Film her packed bags, her leaving the property and the empty cupboards. Then change the locks and stay in the property for a week at least.

I too can only hint at the other option which so far I've never had to comtemplate, but I do know that in law as a landlord with a tenant overholding it is me that will be out of pocket while a tenant decides to stay for a year or two paying no rent, and me as a landlord is not going to waste my time with the PRTB or heaven forbid more costs by going to court.

Personally when one weights up the cost of 2 years of zero rent, stress, the tenant lording over one, the tenant no doubt leaving the place in a tip versus doing the wrong thing and getting a massive fine by the PRTB, well do the sums.

I suggest your sister contact the Irish property owners association. IPOA.

And the reaction of those who pay rent allowance, send them a letter by registered post, and I most certainly would recount what had been said on the telephone. You need to stop this lady getting rent allowance, that will soften her cough. You got to learn to play the system as she is an expert. It is quite clear from this tenant's actions that she will move on to the next landlord and do exactly the same thing.
 
HSE do not pay Rent Supplement.

Rent Supplement is a scheme operated by the Dept of Social Protection (Social Welfare as its commonly known), and while it was administered by HSE staff in the past (the Community Welfare Officers), those staff are now Department staff as was mentioned in an earlier post.

The SWA officer may still operate from a HSE health centre, but this is changing as they transfer to Department offices.
 
I had a similar problem tenant recently and called the Community Welfare Officer and he immediately diverted the rent supplement payment to my bank account. If your sister can't get any joy on the phone, she should try to make an appointment with the CWO or send a registered letter immediately as Bronte suggests. I backed up my telephone conversation with the CWO with an immediate email with copy of the lease, etc.

Once she gets the rent supplement transferred directly to her, she can try Bronte's suggestion with the offer of cash to entice her to move. I also did this with my recent troublesome tenant and it worked as he needed the cash, but I only handed it to him when he was outside the house and had given back the keys. I also asked the Gardai to accompany me, they sent a marked car with 2 Guards, as I was 'in fear of a breach of the peace' and for 'my own personal safety' when the tenant was leaving the property.

As your sister already has a judgement from the PRTB, I would also contact them and request that the appeal be heard as a matter of urgency due to severe financial hardship etc., just in case the offer of cash doesn't work. I think the Director of the PRTB is Anne Marie Caulfield and I would address a registered letter to her.

The law is a joke when it comes to evicting non-paying tenants from private rental property. I had to wait 6 months for a non-paying tenant to move out and when they finally left, they wrecked the house, destroyed the furniture and left tons of rubbish behind including black bags full of household waste in the attic! Needless to say, they walked away scot free and couldn't be traced.
 
Thanks very much for the advice. Because there is a child involved they don't want to do anything that's not by the book.
I advised my sister at the time to just give the cash to her and just get rid but they couldn't see past this woman owing them hundreds and just giving her more money was ludicrous. They have never been landlords before but are learning fast that they are not the experts.
AlbacoreA - this has been going on for months. I too can not understand why the social welfare officer hasn't cut off the rent allowance cheque. What normally happens is they ring him - he rings her - they get paid half a week and then nothing for weeks until they call again. Even if they got the cheque paid directly (which they have requested) it would be something - but its not taken seriously. I wonder could they claim some money back from the social welfare for all these 'misappropriated funds'?
Bronte I never heard of the IPOA - what do they do?
 
So much conflicting stories. The Community Welfare Officer said to us they wouldn't deal with the LL due to data protection, but did get all payments stopped. They wouldn't send payments to the LL directly with out the tenant signing permission for this.

But this all seems to vary from region to region and perhaps office to office. Personally I wouldn't rely on phone calls, letters have more effect because they can't deny them especially if you can name some of the officers you've dealt with in your letters.
 
shesells said:
So the taxpayer should pay twice :confused:
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There's absolutely no chance of this happening as the rent supplement has already been paid to the tenant. I lost out on 3 week's rent as the tenant kept telling me his rent supplement hadn't come through yet. When I contacted the CWO, I was told that it had been paid to him from day 1.
 
shesells said:
So the taxpayer should pay twice :confused:
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I was thinking perhaps they could reduce her social welfare payment slightly as was previously mentioned. At the moment the taxpayer paying for this mess is my sister and her husband.....

The latest from the CWO is the tenant needs to agree for the payment to be made directly to the LL - which is highly unlikely!

Solicitor letter going to the CWO (small town only 1 involved) and the tenant this week. Not sure if it will make any difference :(

Thanks for taking the time to post!
 
My experience was the CWO's really had no interest in either facilitating the LL or indeed looking after the tenant. Basically had to sort it out ourselves. Their dis-interest is one of the main reasons I wouldn't be interested in tenant on RA in the future. If they don't care about it, I don't see why I should be interested in it either.

In reality a LL has no dealings with the CWO or the RA scheme. The tenant pays deposit and rent in advance. If they are late they get termination notice. Any delays in payment from the scheme are not the LL problem. The tenant still pays on time.

Anything else means the LL is providing a loan to the Govt and tenant for housing. Which means increased risk of financial loss, and all the risk is on the LL side. Which is no way to run a business. There isn't enough money in it to risk that. A couple of months of no rent a bit of damage and you'd have been better off leaving your money in a bank. Assuming of course it doesn't push the LL over a financial cliff.

Its a business. Run it like one.
 
A Solicitor letter is meaningless. All disputes got to the PRTB which take ages. The solicitor and the tenant and the CWO know this. They'll ignore a Solicitors letter. Going to a solicitor (at this point) is just a waste of money. A Solicitor is only too happy to take money off you, though. All legal options just put more money in the solicitor pocket. Thats their business. So just be aware of that when you go that route. They have a vested interest in the legal route.

The PRTB was designed to reduce these costs. Its just too slow.
 
Hello again,

Just thought I would post an update. Solicitors letter went to the CWO - tenant rings today saying her RA has been cut off and she certainly won't be leaving the house now and was extremely abusive on the phone.

My sister rang me in tears, she reckons they have no option but to pay her off (if that even works at this stage) but its their savings for Xmas that they will have to use :(.

Are there any other options besides hiring a hit man?
 
I assume they would cut off the RA and the another DSP payments. In my experience the tenant may move to another area to get this turned back on. Also be aware they may transfer any services like ESB, GAS back to the LL and continue to use it, leaving the LL with a bill. You might want to flag this to the companies involved.

Unfortunately I think the tenant knows what they are doing and stringing the LL along.
 
Alana55 said:
Solicitors letter went to the CWO - tenant rings today saying her RA has been cut off and she certainly won't be leaving the house now and was extremely abusive on the phone.
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What a terrible situation, I went through something similar in February this year but without the involvement of the PRTB and was perhaps very lucky to have a helpful CWO who transferred the RA directly to me.

Did your sister contact the CWO to ask if the RA will now be trasferred to her instead of the tenant as this person is still occupying the property?

She should also send the CWO a copy of the PRTB judgement against the tenant to prove that she is in breach of her tenancy agreement.

Has she contacted the PRTB to inform them that the situation has now escalated? It is the PRTB’s policy to prioritise cases where tenants are not complying with valid notices of termination and are in significant rent arrears. Assuming she is successful at the PRTB adjudication hearing, the PRTB will issue a binding Determination Order. If the tenant does not comply with it, she should contact the PRTB and request that they enforce the Determination Order.
 
Your sister should

- pay the blackmailer and end the saga.

OR
-refuse and suffer further loss and stress whilst the tenant stays in situ for ages.
OR
- take the risk of getting someone to put the tenant's stuff outside and change the locks when the tenant is out.

The first option would be the obvious one for your sister who is pregnant and obviously in a distressed state.

Is it rude of me to ask why don't you go round and give the nasty person the deposit back and get her out ?
 
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oldnick said:
Your sister should


OR
- take the risk of getting someone to put the tenant's stuff outside and change the locks when the tenant is out.
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Just wondering what are the consequences of something like this? Legally I mean. TBH in this situation I feel it's sound advice.
 
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