BlackandBlue
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EU261 rules apply on the day of the flight.
Ryanair changed my flight times and they don't suit me
- Thread starter Bronco Lane
- Start date
Bronco Lane
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Update. It gets better....
I queried the 5 hour rule and this is what they sent me in an email....
ARTICLE 9 - SCHEDULES
9.1.1 When we accept your booking, the scheduled flight timings in force at the time will be shown in your booking confirmation or itinerary. The flight timings shown in your booking confirmation or itinerary may change at any time.
9.1.2 If we change flight timings, and you gave us an email address or phone number when you made your booking, we will use it to tell you about the change. Except where clause 9.2 below applies, if, before the date of travel:
.The above does not appear on their current website Terms and Conditions. No mention of 5 hours anywhere.
This is what their website says.
9.1.2 If we change flight timings or numbers before scheduled departure, we will notify you about these changes by e-mail. We may also notify you by push notification and text message (if you gave us a phone number for this purpose) where these changes occur shortly before scheduled departure. You will be informed of your rights in accordance with clause 9.2 below.
So were they just making up the email to me above, because in their website version there is no mention of 5 hours.....
In their own Terms and Conditions they need to be aware of 9.2.1 "Passenger Rights Regulations". Click below to read.
9.2.2 If your flight is cancelled or delayed by two hours or more, we will give you information on your rights, including your rights to compensation and assistance.
I queried the 5 hour rule and this is what they sent me in an email....
ARTICLE 9 - SCHEDULES
9.1.1 When we accept your booking, the scheduled flight timings in force at the time will be shown in your booking confirmation or itinerary. The flight timings shown in your booking confirmation or itinerary may change at any time.
9.1.2 If we change flight timings, and you gave us an email address or phone number when you made your booking, we will use it to tell you about the change. Except where clause 9.2 below applies, if, before the date of travel:
- we change the scheduled departure time by more than five hours;
- this is unacceptable to you; and
- we cannot book you on an alternative flight which is acceptable to you;
.The above does not appear on their current website Terms and Conditions. No mention of 5 hours anywhere.
This is what their website says.
9.1 Schedules
9.1.1 When we accept your booking, the scheduled flight timings and flight numbers in force at the time will be shown in your booking confirmation or itinerary. The flight timings and flight numbers shown in your booking confirmation or itinerary may change before scheduled departure.9.1.2 If we change flight timings or numbers before scheduled departure, we will notify you about these changes by e-mail. We may also notify you by push notification and text message (if you gave us a phone number for this purpose) where these changes occur shortly before scheduled departure. You will be informed of your rights in accordance with clause 9.2 below.
So were they just making up the email to me above, because in their website version there is no mention of 5 hours.....
In their own Terms and Conditions they need to be aware of 9.2.1 "Passenger Rights Regulations". Click below to read.
9.2 Cancellations and delays
9.2.1 If we cancel any flight you have booked, fail to operate the flight reasonably according to schedule or cancel the route, you may be entitled to the rights set out in the https://www.iata.org/policy/documents/mc99_en.pdf (Montreal Convention 1999) or the applicable Passenger Rights Regulations.9.2.2 If your flight is cancelled or delayed by two hours or more, we will give you information on your rights, including your rights to compensation and assistance.
Oh! Dear!
It appears that they are making up their own rules and regulations now in their private emails to fob people off ,but their own public website is showing something completely different.
It is fairly obvious from the above that there is nothing anywhere about 5 hours except in what looks like a manufactured email or some ancient set of resurrected Terms and Conditions or incompetence. These are the rules.
"FLIGHT DELAY If we reasonably expect your flight to be delayed for two hours or more beyond its scheduled time of departure in the case of flights of 1500km or less (but three hours or more in the case of all intra-EU flights of more than 1,500km and of all other flights operated by us between 1,500km and 3,500km), you are entitled to the relevant rights set out in paragraphs 1 to 3 below."
It appears that they are making up their own rules and regulations now in their private emails to fob people off ,but their own public website is showing something completely different.
It is fairly obvious from the above that there is nothing anywhere about 5 hours except in what looks like a manufactured email or some ancient set of resurrected Terms and Conditions or incompetence. These are the rules.
"FLIGHT DELAY If we reasonably expect your flight to be delayed for two hours or more beyond its scheduled time of departure in the case of flights of 1500km or less (but three hours or more in the case of all intra-EU flights of more than 1,500km and of all other flights operated by us between 1,500km and 3,500km), you are entitled to the relevant rights set out in paragraphs 1 to 3 below."
Just note as per above, the rescheduling of a flight, and a flight delay are two very different things.
As @Leo said, there are different scenarios being discussed above.
Flight cancellation by airline:
Any airline can cancel a flight upto 14 days beforehand and all they owe you is a refund, no compensation. You can also opt for re-booking.
They can also cancel at 7-13 days if they can re-route you with an arrival time of less than 4 hours of a difference. No compensation.
They can cancel within 7 days if they can get you there within 2 hours of the original time. No compensation.
Flight schedule change by airline:
The Ryanair 5-hour schedule change refund policy is based on EU regulations and is the same for many other airlines, e.g. BA. So long as it is more than 14 days out from your flight then you are due refund/re-routing but no compensation.
Compensation only kicks in when it is within 14 days of travel and your arrival at your final destination is delayed by 2-4 hours, depending on the distance flown.
People are often surprised by the above because airports and airlines actually run a generally reliable service.
Flight cancellation by airline:
Any airline can cancel a flight upto 14 days beforehand and all they owe you is a refund, no compensation. You can also opt for re-booking.
They can also cancel at 7-13 days if they can re-route you with an arrival time of less than 4 hours of a difference. No compensation.
They can cancel within 7 days if they can get you there within 2 hours of the original time. No compensation.
Flight schedule change by airline:
The Ryanair 5-hour schedule change refund policy is based on EU regulations and is the same for many other airlines, e.g. BA. So long as it is more than 14 days out from your flight then you are due refund/re-routing but no compensation.
Compensation only kicks in when it is within 14 days of travel and your arrival at your final destination is delayed by 2-4 hours, depending on the distance flown.
People are often surprised by the above because airports and airlines actually run a generally reliable service.
Do you have a link to that EU Regulation?
No. It's not in just one piece of legislation and there has been further interpretation of the rules in case law. You would have to ask an EU law/aviation law expert.
Most of the regs are linked from the official EU site here.
Is a flight schedule change and a flight cancellation not basically the same thing.
The OP's flight no longer exists. It was cancelled.
He wants a refund.
It is but they may well argue that their schedules are very fluid this far out and they may reconstitute the original flight at any time.
They are allowed to wait until 2 weeks before the flight to confirm the change/cancellation and give the refund then.
Ryanair could have great games with this.
Advertise a flight at a certain appealing time at a slightly higher price. Sell a few seats.
Rinse, Wash, Repeat......for months on end.
Then come up with the excuse "Ah! Sure we might change them again, so we won't be giving you a refund until we decide".
RonnieShinbal88
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Yes, if they have one plane on a route flying over and back this approach could sell 3 or 4 plane loads of seats advertised at an appealing time at the time they are sold (with some then moved later). When in reality, only one or two plane loads are actually available. Which would be false advertising. It would be interesting to track this for some routes, I'm sure they make web scraping difficult for these reasons.
Brendan Burgess
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Guys - don't get carried away with conspiracy theories.
If you want to book a flight 6 months in advance, you will get a cheaper price, but you have to accept that for operational reasons the time may change.
I doubt that any airline is deliberately advertising flights which it has no intention of operating. I presume that when they change the time of the flight, your seats are still valid until you cancel them.
So if they advertised 5 flights intending to operate only one, then they would have massive overbooking.
Having said all that, the 5 hour discretion is way too wide. And if they change the time, even provisionally, they should give the passenger the right to cancel free of charge.
But I don't know if you would benefit by cancelling. You could book a flight with a different airline, only to find that they have changed their time as well and the original airline is going out at the original time.
Brendan
If you want to book a flight 6 months in advance, you will get a cheaper price, but you have to accept that for operational reasons the time may change.
I doubt that any airline is deliberately advertising flights which it has no intention of operating. I presume that when they change the time of the flight, your seats are still valid until you cancel them.
So if they advertised 5 flights intending to operate only one, then they would have massive overbooking.
Having said all that, the 5 hour discretion is way too wide. And if they change the time, even provisionally, they should give the passenger the right to cancel free of charge.
But I don't know if you would benefit by cancelling. You could book a flight with a different airline, only to find that they have changed their time as well and the original airline is going out at the original time.
Brendan
losttheplot
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I've often followed my flight on Flight tracker. They don't seem to just fly the same route over and back. Dub to Lanzarote flight was the same aircraft that had just done Birmingham to Dublin. Then it was Dublin to Kracow. A change in any of the schedules in any of these airports would have a knock on affect on schedules elsewhere.
As a traveller who books many flights in advance I've seen flights change pretty regularly. I get an email notifying me about the flight change and I can generally accept it, change to a more suitable day if inconvenient or cancel for a refund. Recently (last year or so) I noticed Ryanair were more restrictive on what changes could be made.
Some flight changes can be as little as 10 minutes. We don't like flights at obscene times. Like 5 am flights. But most of the routes we use have many options so we're not as restricted as regards a change (in general). In the past Ryanair would allow you to change to a different day, but now even a week later, but now I think it's a 48 hour window.
Some flight changes can be as little as 10 minutes. We don't like flights at obscene times. Like 5 am flights. But most of the routes we use have many options so we're not as restricted as regards a change (in general). In the past Ryanair would allow you to change to a different day, but now even a week later, but now I think it's a 48 hour window.
So let's figure out the actual rules (which may or not be Ryanair rules:
europa.eu
Cancellation occurs when:
If your flight is cancelled you have the right to choose between reimbursement, re-routing or return.
Air passenger rights - Your Europe
Travellers' rights - flight delays, cancellations and overbooking (passengers unable to fly on flight they booked)
Cancellation occurs when:
- your original flight schedule is abandoned and you are transferred to another scheduled flight
If your flight is cancelled you have the right to choose between reimbursement, re-routing or return.
RonnieShinbal88
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I don't think it's tinfoil hat territory to suggest they could also move flights to maximise profits. Provided that is allowed in the regulations and they can get away with it. Given the CEO is obliged to maximise share holder value he would be expected to do this unless it impacted on customer loyalty and the brand etc. Ryanair don't rely on customer loyalty they rely on being the cheapest option. They used to quote their 'on time' stats a lot also but they don't seem to do that so much in recent times, that might just be from my sample of Ryanair flights, but I haven't been on an on time one in a long time.
Brendan Burgess
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They genuinely plan flights. And then they move them around to maximise profitability and the use of aircraft.
I doubt that they put on flights they don't intend to operate.
It's possible that they might put up two flights to see which is the most attractive time for customers. I doubt that they do this on existing routes as they would have big data on this. They might do it for new routes.
Brendan
I doubt that they put on flights they don't intend to operate.
It's possible that they might put up two flights to see which is the most attractive time for customers. I doubt that they do this on existing routes as they would have big data on this. They might do it for new routes.
Brendan
RonnieShinbal88
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I meant that there might be only 2 popular slots available but they could sell 4 plane loads at those times, i.e sell flights at the 2 slots then move those 2 flights to less popular times 5 hours earlier or later after they fill up, then sell another 2 at flights added or moved to depart round the original popular times. So all 4 flights are planned and all are advertised at appealing times but only 2 actually leave around those times. I doubt they do this a lot as standard practice, but Gordon's example earlier of his 6PM flight moved to 11PM and then a new flight was sold at 4PM seemed to be along those lines.
Don't forget that airlines only have so much control over timeslots and changes - the airports (both departure and destination) and aviation authorities are also involved. Ryanair can't just make up imaginary times and then change them at will.
For the airlines in alliances, they have to consider codeshares and connections - even a small change could cause havoc. There's also catering and other ground services to co-ordinate.
For the airlines in alliances, they have to consider codeshares and connections - even a small change could cause havoc. There's also catering and other ground services to co-ordinate.