Pros and cons of letting through social welfare

Have to say I find the attitude on this thread somewhat disturbing. I moved abroad a few years ago and let my house out to a young single parent. Had no difficulties what so ever. I also know several others who have let their properties to people on Social Welfare including non nationals, also without any issues. imho this attitude is pure snobbery!

It has absolutely nothing to do with snobbery! The bottom line is this:

1. You are more likely to encounter problems with SW tenants than with the population as a whole, simply because the SW sector contains many people who are disfunctional to a greater or lesser degree, a sector that is more likely to have a higher percentage of problem tenants. Fact.

2. If and when you get into problems with a SW tenant, you will run up against a brick wall. The tenants won't care and won't have the wherewithall to compensate you for damage or loss of rent. The Local authority doesn't have a mechanism for sorting out landlord's problems, and they don't need to -- they can just relocate a problem tenant to another landlord's property. In addition, you may find a whole gamut of social workers and other support services ranged against you, the big bad landlord.

So while it may be simple to describe an antipathy to housing SW tenants as snobbery, I am just being pragmatic -- give me working people who have developed a sense of responsibility over tenants with a well-developed dependancy culture any day. Housing of SW tenants requires a highly-supported system that the private sector does not and can not afford to provide. If the authorities are falling down on their job, it is not the role of the private sector to replace them on a very uneven playing field.
 
Auto 320, (name says a lot really) I stand by my earlier comments. If you were to post similar comments based on race, religion, disability etc, I am quite sure your post would be taken off the board. It is rediculous to say the least to tar all people on social welfare with the same brush. You have a good situation now where demand for rental propertys exceeds supply. "The bottom line is this"You may have to eat your words in years to come!
 
Try reading my post again and then coment, and also consider the arguments in the context of this thread, which is about property investment. That's "investment", not "buying", "replacing the role of local government" or "altruism." It is very easy to make a personal attack on me and try to use that to put your own flat-earth views forward in the context of a discussion on investment, but you need to get into the real world.

I have nothing against social welfare tenants. I recognise that in a just society a certain percentage of people will always need to be looked after by the rest of us, either by reason of age, disability, unemployment or just general inability to cope with the world. I have absolutely no problem with my tax euros being used to take care of those who need it. That is one of the reasons why we have local authorities and the HSE, and if they are not doing their job its not my fault.

However, it is a simple fact, not an opinion, that the SW rental sector contains a higher percentage of people who are disfunctional and unable to cope than the population in general. That is why they need to be helped with housing, funds and social support networks. Conversely, if the sector was smilar in cross-section to the rest of the population, there would be no need for social welfare supports. That is also the reason why an INVESTOR should be aware that the sector is a high risk one for anyone who is looking for returns in an industry where margins are currently very low due to the inflated price of property. I don't get involved in the private rental sector in Ireland at all for all these reasons, but if I did I would certainly steer clear of the SW sector, particularly given the one-sided contracts offered by the local authorities.

As for your comment that "You have a good situation now where demand for rental propertys exceeds supply" -- where have you been lately? The towns of ireland are full of vacant properties bought by "investors" who fell for this kind of unresearched thinking. These buyers are now tempted to get involved in renting to local authority tenants, on punitive terms that would not be accepted in the private sector, and although many of them will have a good experience (read that last bit again before you attack my reasoning), a good number will live to regret their decision to prop up the shortcomings of the local authorities.

The bottom line, as I said before, is that the local authorities will not be in the least intersted when a problem family wrecks their home and then comes demanding that they do immediate repairs. The local authority will simply re-house the tenants with another gullible landlord, and the original investor will be left to sort out the mess with absolutely no redress against anyone. Worse still, the landlord will find himself or herself ranged against the whole network of social workers, officials, even elected representatives. The investor will have to fund any resulting legal battles, while the tenant and the local authority have unlimited access to legal advice and representation, with a consequent ability to go as far as they like in the court system.

If you are so convinced of the merits of renting to local authority tenants, go to your bank, borrow a few euro, and get into the business. That's the acid test of course; it's all right to preach at others, but would you risk your hard earned money (or more likely -borrowings) in a sector that is full of grief.

Whatever I might want to believe about the way society is structured, and how things might operate in an ideal world, I post here only for the benefit of would-be investors. I don't aspire to raise this discussion to the more lofty and moralistic level that you seem to want it to operate at. I just tell it like it is, not as it should be in this ideal world of yours.

Oh by the way, I have been there, gave the benefit of the doubt a few years ago in another jurisdiction to a family that relied on the state for the roof over their heads. It took a year and a lot of legal costs before I could get them out for non payment of the rent and for damage to the property and general upset to the neighbours. Even so, I would have no problem getting into the business again if the figures added up and if the local authorities indemnified landlords against loss and damages -- they don't. Once bitten!
 
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In the context of this discussion, some of what is said in this thread may be of interest. Of course on swallow does not a summer make etc.

Please keep it civil and within the Posting Guidelines please folks, i.e. non-offensive and do not resort to personal attacks.
 
Dont really want to post too often on property invesment threads, not something I am particularly interested in but as the time was taken to respond to my short little post I will reply.

I have nothing against social welfare tenants. I recognise that in a just society a certain percentage of people will always need to be looked after by the rest of us, either by reason of age, disability, unemployment or just general inability to cope with the world. I have absolutely no problem with my tax euros being used to take care of those who need it. That is one of the reasons why we have local authorities and the HSE, and if they are not doing their job its not my fault.

However, it is a simple fact, not an opinion, that the SW rental sector contains a higher percentage of people who are disfunctional and unable to cope than the population in general. That is why they need to be helped with housing, funds and social support networks. Conversely, if the sector was smilar in cross-section to the rest of the population, there would be no need for social welfare supports. That is also the reason why an INVESTOR should be aware that the sector is a high risk one for anyone who is looking for returns in an industry where margins are currently very low due to the inflated price of property. I don't get involved in the private rental sector in Ireland at all for all these reasons, but if I did I would certainly steer clear of the SW sector, particularly given the one-sided contracts offered by the local authorities.

Some conflict there between your first and second paragraphs imo! Also, how can you be such an expert in an area that you profess to have never been involved in?

As for your comment that "You have a good situation now where demand for rental propertys exceeds supply" -- where have you been lately? The towns of ireland are full of vacant properties bought by "investors" who fell for this kind of unresearched thinking. These buyers are now tempted to get involved in renting to local authority tenants, on punitive terms that would not be accepted in the private sector, and although many of them will have a good experience (read that last bit again before you attack my reasoning), a good number will live to regret their decision to prop up the shortcomings of the local authorities.

Have you heard of Holiday homes at all? or derelict houses? Take a look around either between the canals in Dublin or any rural town you will see plenty of property tht simply could not be rented due to its condition!! Also try finding anyone at home in a large % of costal properties outside the Holiday season!

The bottom line, as I said before, is that the local authorities will not be in the least intersted when a problem family wrecks their home and then comes demanding that they do immediate repairs. The local authority will simply re-house the tenants with another gullible landlord, and the original investor will be left to sort out the mess with absolutely no redress against anyone. Worse still, the landlord will find himself or herself ranged against the whole network of social workers, officials, even elected representatives. The investor will have to fund any resulting legal battles, while the tenant and the local authority have unlimited access to legal advice and representation, with a consequent ability to go as far as they like in the court system.

This may or may not be a fact in some cases, I wouldn't have the experience to either agree or disagree but I do think it is yet another sweeping statement! The use of your term "the bottom line is" implies that your stated opinion is undisputed fact! IT IS NOT!

If you are so convinced of the merits of renting to local authority tenants, go to your bank, borrow a few euro, and get into the business. That's the acid test of course; it's all right to preach at others, but would you risk your hard earned money (or more likely -borrowings) in a sector that is full of grief.

You suggested I should read your post again. May I now suggest that you read my initial post again! I already rented my HOME out to someone on SW with no problems what so ever. As for your remark regarding borrowings - huge assumption, again!

Whatever I might want to believe about the way society is structured, and how things might operate in an ideal world, I post here only for the benefit of would-be investors. I don't aspire to raise this discussion to the more lofty and moralistic level that you seem to want it to operate at. I just tell it like it is, not as it should be in this ideal world of yours.

Such self belief! I am entitled to disagree with your opinions dont you think, particularly when you take such a black and white view of one section of society.

Oh by the way, I have been there, gave the benefit of the doubt a few years ago in another jurisdiction to a family that relied on the state for the roof over their heads. It took a year and a lot of legal costs before I could get them out for non payment of the rent and for damage to the property and general upset to the neighbours. Even so, I would have no problem getting into the business again if the figures added up and if the local authorities indemnified landlords against loss and damages -- they don't. Once bitten!

As you say yourself, ONCE bitten. Also, students have always been "known" to be difficult tenants, wrecking houses and upsetting neighbours! Any bottom lines on them!!
 
I'm not going to get involved in nit-picking; you obviously have fixed and indeed well-intentioned views unrelated to the pros and cons of property investment. I think that most people will agree however that the SW rental sector is a high risk area, compared even to students -- they can be usually made to pay for damage in my experience if you have their home addresses.

Just one last point, then you can have as many last words on this topic as you wish. This post is about property investment, not about how the world should be. Stating the facts might be unpleasant and at odds with your views (and indeed with some of mine) as to how thw world should be, but an investor who gets into this area and ignores the risks is very blinkered. You were lucky; many others get badly burned. Your belief that the local authority will sort out problems if they arise is at odds with the facts -- read the contracts they offer and then make the same statement.

As I said, this is the end of my input to this topic. I have tried to deal with the realities, you want to draw the discussion into the philosophical. I am not going there!
 
Auto 320, I have to agree with you on this subject.

Snobbery doesn't come into this discussion - people are basing their opinions here on their own experiences, from what I can see.
 
my experience is stay away from S.W. From day one i had to chase for the money, It was always late as she received the checks even though i had it on the lease that it went directly into my bank.... i didn't receive her share of Rent from April, im still waiting on the whole of Mays rent...... rang social and haven't heard anything back.. i have given her notice so i don't hold much hope on receiving her payment from April or any of the rent for May...i just hope she leaves in june when notice is up.... but where will she be going next... Beware :)
 
I am utterly disgusted to read this thread. You can't judge every sw applicant just because of bad experiences. I am a single mother and of any previous properties I have rented, rent was ALWAYS paid on time, place was kept spotless, I have just recently redecorated the apartment I am currently renting.. So maybe sort out your issues before discriminating single mothers!
 
I have a very nice gentleman in a property of mine on RA. Couldnt be happier with this person. Pays on time, keeps me posted on everything, looks after the property very well. You have to judge each on their own merits.

B
 
have To Say I Find The Attitude On This Thread Somewhat Disturbing. I Moved Abroad A Few Years Ago And Let My House Out To A Young Single Parent. Had No Difficulties What So Ever. I Also Know Several Others Who Have Let Their Properties To People On Social Welfare Including Non Nationals, Also Without Any Issues. Imho This Attitude Is Pure Snobbery!




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have To Say I Find The Attitude On This Thread Somewhat Disturbing. I Moved Abroad A Few Years Ago And Let My House Out To A Young Single Parent. Had No Difficulties What So Ever. I Also Know Several Others Who Have Let Their Properties To People On Social Welfare Including Non Nationals, Also Without Any Issues. Imho This Attitude Is Pure Snobbery!





Here, Here
 
No way I would let a SW tenant into my property.

I don't need the worry!

I don't doubt there are nice SW tenants out there, but a landlord has no hold on them if they wreck the place and can't go after them because they have no money.

Plus the fact that if I was letting my place out Under SW rules I would not be able to stop them putting who ever they wanted into it.
 
Ya.
SW tenants are more likely than non SW tenants to be troublesome.

Simple as that.

Which begs the question, if you have the choice of non SW tenants above SW tenants, then why woudl someone pick SW tenants?

You've got to go with the pecentages on this one.
 
I am utterly disgusted to read this thread. You can't judge every sw applicant just because of bad experiences. I am a single mother and of any previous properties I have rented, rent was ALWAYS paid on time, place was kept spotless, I have just recently redecorated the apartment I am currently renting.. So maybe sort out your issues before discriminating single mothers!

Whats this got to do with Single mothers ????
 
No way I would let a SW tenant into my property.
My new tenants are social welfare. Foreign married couple with very quiet exceptionally well mannered little boy, mid 30's. One works full time, the other attends college full-time and gets a full SW allowance towards rent for some reason-not my business tbh. Sound like people you wouldn't let near your property? Or do you prefer 6 polish labourers drinking till the cows come home and falling through the plasterboard? See how it's easy to twist things. There are many classes of sw rent supp recipients-they aren't all the dregs of society baying to strip the copper wiring out of your property is all I'm saying.

I don't doubt there are nice SW tenants out there, but a landlord has no hold on them if they wreck the place and can't go after them because they have no money.
If they wreck the place you have as much 'hold of them' as any other tenant. You won't get money out of anyone that easy-getting a court judgement is painfully slow and expensive) and even when you have it, it's just a piece of paper! The only half decent thing you can do with it is get a judgement mortgage registered against any property they own, but wait-they're renting!

Plus the fact that if I was letting my place out Under SW rules I would not be able to stop them putting who ever they wanted into it.
Are you refering to RAS participants or just sw tenants?

To be honest, there's so many LL's point blank refusing sw tenants that it has created a very greatful bunch of sw recipients who genuinely thank the LL (and act accordinly) who takes them.
 
You don't have to be a snob or anything else to understand that local authorities have a housing arm to look after people who are not able to do it for themselves. It therefore stands to reason that the percentage of people with lower coping skills is higher within SW tenants than in the population as a whole.
That is NOT to say that all Sw tenants are bad; far from it. Just that you run a higher risk with SW tenants than with the private rental sector. In addition, if a LL runs into problems with a SW tenant, the tenant has recourse to a battery of suports from free legals to social workers, all ranged agains the landlord (who must pay all his or her own costs).
So, on balance, I would avoid this source of tenants; I have been once bitten, never again!
 
Sure with our 'wonderful' PRTB even a private tenant can make a complaint against you without going near a solicitor or putting their hand in their pocket! If a tenant stops paying rent (probably the worst thing apart from committing criminal damage, that they can do) then you can't legally do anything to them outside of the PRTB procedures except maybe seek an injunction in court (€€€€€€€€). If you sling a private tenant out for not paying rent for 3 months he can just go to the PRTB who will see this as an urgent case and seek an injunction (€€€€€€, even to defend yourself!) on his behalf to get him back in to your house (and possibly fine you too). The PRTB in my opinion has somewhat levelled the playing field between sw and private tenants-the landlord still gets shafted in either case when you have a bad 'un. If the PRTB never came into existence and all legal disputes between LL's and tenants still had to go through he courts then I'd see your point entirely-private tenants would have been more likely to walk away and pester someone else, but not anymore.
 
Sure with our 'wonderful' PRTB even a private tenant can make a complaint against you without going near a solicitor or putting their hand in their pocket! If a tenant stops paying rent (probably the worst thing apart from committing criminal damage, that they can do) then you can't legally do anything to them outside of the PRTB procedures except maybe seek an injunction in court (€€€€€€€€). If you sling a private tenant out for not paying rent for 3 months he can just go to the PRTB who will see this as an urgent case and seek an injunction (€€€€€€, even to defend yourself!) on his behalf to get him back in to your house (and possibly fine you too). The PRTB in my opinion has somewhat levelled the playing field between sw and private tenants-the landlord still gets shafted in either case when you have a bad 'un. If the PRTB never came into existence and all legal disputes between LL's and tenants still had to go through he courts then I'd see your point entirely-private tenants would have been more likely to walk away and pester someone else, but not anymore.

Hi murphaph,

I cant decide whether you are for or against letting to SW tenants.

I would be happy to let to all and sundry if their was a system of checks in place but there isn't.
 
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