Proposals to abolish tax relief on health insurance

Has anyone considered how big an earner health insurance is for the State?

Ours is circa €5,000 a year, but it's a BIK, so I pay over €2,500 of tax on it.
 
noproblem said:
What are people's opinions on the suggestion that people may have the tax allowance taken away from their premiums? This will add an extra €400 to €600 pa to the average policy. Surely private health insurance in in every one's interest and takes the pressure off the goverments responsibility for everyone to have hospital access and treatment. If it happens, i'd imagine an awful lot of people will simply be stretched too far, just one more final kick to their already depleted finances.
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- Why should the taxpayer subsidise some people's decision to go private when the money could be spent on improving the public health care system???

- Your decision to go private does not mean that the number of spaces is magically increased, it just means that you get to jump the queue and at the expense of others who can't afford to pay for private insurance, but non the less end up sponsoring you through their taxes.
 
Jim2007 said:
it just means that you get to jump the queue and at the expense of others who can't afford to pay for private insurance, but non the less end up sponsoring you through their taxes.
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I suspect that people who can't afford health insurance pay little or no tax.

I also suspect that people with health insurance pay a lot of tax.
 
Jim2007 said:
Your decision to go private does not mean that the number of spaces is magically increased, it just means that you get to jump the queue and at the expense of others who can't afford to pay for private insurance, but non the less end up sponsoring you through their taxes.
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That argument is utterly wrong and without foundation or merit.

Explain the existence of private medical facilities-how do they not increase the number of places? There's no magic involved.

Explain the monies paid by private insurance companies to the public health system.

Does anyone pay for private medical insurance who does not pay taxes????? Take all the taxes paid by people with private medical insurance out of the public purse and it would bankrupt the state, they are the net contributors to the tax system.

Find me large cohorts of people without medical insurance who are net contributors to the tax system???

We have a concept of community rating. How will that survive if the people with least need for medical insurance - the young and relatively healthy - abandon the system en masse because of premium increases and do not return because of age loading.
The system will collapse if all that is left is the old and those with the most medical needs.
If you think the public waiting lists are bad now, imagine what they'll be like if everyone is in the same queue.
 
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Gordon Gekko said:
I suspect that people who can't afford health insurance pay little or no tax.

I also suspect that people with health insurance pay a lot of tax.
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In a system where health risk is supposed to be a common public risk why should anyone be entitled to buy their way onto the waiting list?
 
odyssey06 said:
Explain the monies paid by private insurance companies to the public health system.
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Yes do explain why private insurance paying into the public system if they are not in some way consuming services that would otherwise be available for use by the public!
 
Jim2007 said:
Yes do explain why private insurance paying into the public system if they are not in some way consuming services that would otherwise be available for use by the public!
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What does the public system do with the monies received? Does it go into a black hole?
It seems reasonable to conclude that the private insurers are part funding the public system through these payments. It is not the fault of private insurers if the public system is wasteful with these monies.

And if private insurance companies didn't exist, all those people would still be consuming the same services and the public system wouldn't get one single red cent. Not a one.
The people with private insurance are still the PUBLIC. They pay taxes and private insurance premiums. They are funding their own treatments through private insurance and the treatment of everybody else through their taxes. They are not skipping the queue, they are using a queue that they created through their own funding to be diagnosed earlier, instead of adding to the 18 month or 24 month waiting list the public system has - and which they would be ON if they didn't have private insurance.
If your diagnoses reveals you need elective surgery, then you join the elective treatment queue you funded through your premiums. You place no strain on the public system.
Once you are diagnosed with something serious e.g. cancer, there is not much difference in treatment times between public and private - but early diagnosis can save your life for sure.

And in an emergency situation, e.g. heart attack, most people with private insurance are still going to end up in the public system.
So we all have a stake in the public system whether we want to or not.
 
Jim2007 said:
In a system where health risk is supposed to be a common public risk why should anyone be entitled to buy their way onto the waiting list?
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They are not buying their way onto *the* waiting list. They have funded and created their own waiting list, which is their right as citizens to engage the services of other citizens.
 
100% correct. The people with health insurance are also funding the public health system for everyone else. They MUST rise up and argue against the nonsense peddled by Sinn Fein/IRA and the likes of AAA. I remember having to make sacrifices in order to pay my health insurance premia when I was younger. The abolition of tax relief on health insurance would be a disgrace and an affront to the people who keep this country going.
 
odyssey06 said:
They are not buying their way onto *the* waiting list. They have funded and created their own waiting list, which is their right as citizens to engage the services of other citizens.
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I like Jim2007 would also ask why should my income tax be used to reduce their Private Health Insurance Premium that allows them their "own waiting list"
 
From all the enormous administrative waste our tax money goes through, from all the social welfare fraud, people taking welfare payments and earning untaxed income under the table you guys argue about the €200 tax credit health insurance payers get?


I wonder, if someone were to put some numbers down like
i) total taxes paid by people who choose to buy private health insurance
ii) total taxes paid by people who do not buy private health insurance
iii) deduct welfare payment expenses
iv) add insurance companies (inflated) payments toward public hospitals

Personally, I believe the individuals that choose to buy private health insurance are also the ones that are mostly paying for the rest of system.
 
It has always struck me as odd that health insurance premiums are subsidised by the State.

There is no similar subsidy in the UK. In fact, health insurance premiums are subject to insurance premium tax, currently @10%.

Personally, I would have no problem with the removal of this tax credit.
 
Gordon Gekko said:
Find me large cohorts of people without medical insurance who are net contributors to the tax system
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I can't speak to the size of my cohort, but i'm one - a healthy man under 35 with a higher-than-average income and a corresponding tax bill.
I don't consider myself particular risk averse, and I could afford it, but I choose not to buy PHI because I don't think it's cost-effective (for me).

Some factors:
- I can buy in at 33/4 with no penalty.
- I'm healthy with no particular risk factors (gender, genetic, lifestyle) for that to change in the near future.
- I can afford to pay out-of-pocket to bypass any long diagnostic waiting lists. You can buy a CT scan next week for €200.
- Long treatment times tend to apply to chronic/ortho/older-person illnesses, where i'm not at risk before 35. If I turn up to the public health system with private ct scans of a growing tumor, I'll be treated well and promptly.
- I can afford to insure myself for run-of-the-mill sicknesses, injuries and medications.
 
Cervelo said:
I like Jim2007 would also ask why should my income tax be used to reduce their Private Health Insurance Premium that allows them their "own waiting list"
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Because if they don't take out private health insurance they will place more strain on the public health system, and you will have to pay even more income tax.
Just like, if they don't take out private pension, in retirement they will place more strain on the public purse.
 
trasneoir said:
I can't speak to the size of my cohort, but i'm one - a healthy man under 35 with a higher-than-average income and a corresponding tax bill.
I don't consider myself particular risk averse, and I could afford it, but I choose not to buy PHI because I don't think it's cost-effective (for me).

Some factors:
- I can buy in at 33/4 with no penalty.
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And what happens at 33-35 if you decide you need it but if everyone a few years older than you has packed in private health insurance?
I think for a cohort we'd need a group of people who over the course of their income and tax lives are net contributors to tha public purse but do not - at any point - take out private health insurance. And I don't see that cohort as existing in any appreciable numbers.
The only one I can think of are migrant workers who are here for a few years of their peak earning years but do not stick around, but then they are not part of community rating etc etc either, nor part of state benefits etc so they could just as easily argue why is any of their tax going to PRSI or funding the state pension.
 
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Hopefully, they will not go on to then abolish tax relief on unrecovered medical expenses. That relief was cut to the standard rate a few years ago - 20% I think.
 
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