Perspectives on the Egyptian situation

[Betsy Og]

In a bit of a conflict on this one, on the one hand 'overthrow of democratically elected government' doesnt sit well with me, while on the other hand the idea of dirsuption of the creation of an islamist country (sharia law and what have you) sounds positive.

While I know Turkey has its many failings, it does seem to be the template that would suit 'the west' best & could well be what is best for the populations of the newly liberated 'Arab Spring' countries. That is a secular democratic countries made up (primarily, I gather) of muslims.

Ok who are we to tell them what is best for them, but at the same time can there really be women in those countries who think they'd be better off in a strict islamist state?? Are they so brainwashed by religion that they need saving from themselves??, or is it a fear thing??

 

[Superman]

"Who are we" depends on who you are. For me it's a human rights thing- especially for monitored and religious freedom. Everything else is derived from that eventually- women's rights, gay rights etc. So I'm most concerned about religious minorities such as Copts, Shia and apostates. This is anathema to an Islamic state.

The problem is that there is little philosophical cultural underpinning for a non Islamic identity. Attaturk was able to partly manufacture and partly draw on history to create his Turkish identity at least and the state there had already the machinery of a state to keep things together. Not only that but Attaturk was quite vigorous in killing all Islamist opposition at the time.

On Egypt, fear is part of it- go too far and you will be branded apostate, the punishment being death. There are usually different streams in society also. The conservative countryside Petit bourgeois, the left leaning city dwelling students etc.

 

[delgirl]

Ok who are we to tell them what is best for them, but at the same time can there really be women in those countries who think they'd be better off in a strict islamist state?? Are they so brainwashed by religion that they need saving from themselves??, or is it a fear thing??

It's a mixture of religious indoctrination, a warped interpretation of the Koran being forced upon them, family tradition and fear.

The removal of Morsi was a good thing if you're against his party's sacking of women in top government jobs, their attempt to deny women the right to seek a divorce under Islam, their support of female circumcision and their plan to reduce the age of consent for girls to marry from 18 to 9.

Democratically elected government, not so sure about that as of 50 million eligible voters only 24% voted for Morsi. Some people voted for him on the basis of the Brotherhood handing out food and promising people a better life. Others voted thinking he was the best of a bad bunch.

Having lived in the Middle East for many years, I met local women who were happy to cover themselves from head to toe in 40 degree heat as they could travel around incognito and not be harrassed. Other, mainly younger women, wanted more freedom to be educated, work, drive and just simply to go out shopping uncovered with friends without having to take a male relative or driver with them.

It's very telling when you board a flight to London from some of the Gulf States - as soon as the plane takes off, the local ladies are delighted to remove their drab black garb and display their designer western clothes. Some of these women are absolutely stunning - it's not surprising their male relatives want to keep them under wraps!

 

[Superman]

It's a mixture ..., a warped interpretation of the Koran being forced upon them...

Their warped interpretation is merely taking literally a text / series of texts which is meant to be interpreted literally.
I.e. a literal interpretation is not a good thing, and a warped interpretation is outsiders should wish to encourage. The problem then making sure it warps in the correct direction...

 

[Perplexed]

I visited Egypt last November and it was very interesting to see the country then. From what I could gather a lot of the problem is a lack of education and the uneducated doing what the Imams tell them. I was told by people who had taken part in the initial protests in Tarhir Sq to oust Mubarak that they actually wished he was still in power. That the whole freedom idea had been hijacked by the Muslin Brotherhood. One of these men was a Coptic Christian and he told me several of their churches had been burnt down and it was totally ignored by the police. All types of crime including murder had almost tripled. For the uneducated Egyptians 'Freedom' simply meant the freedom to do what they liked. Mixed marriages were being banned, the treatment of women was going back to the dark ages, young girls could be married as soon as they had their first period......and lots of other scary stuff as interpreted from Sharia law.

The bottom line is that ordinary Egyptians are really suffering. Tourism is down big time. I was on a Nile cruise and at that stage 60% of the cruisers were tied up at dock. A huge amount of people are literally starving as their only source of income is tourism. I imagine things are a lot worse this year and it really makes me sad. A lot of the population are not mixed up in protests and politics and just want to get about their daily lives but they were all suffering unter the regime of Morsi.

I fear things will probably get a lot worse before they get better. We on the outside can't force a solution on them but clearly something had to give and I hope and pray it's a move in the right direction. These recent protests to topple Morsi seem to be about trying to get the real Freedom they sought in the first place. I hope this time it has a better outcome.

Yes, delgirl, I've heard stories too about lots of Muslims going abroad for Ramadan so they didn't have to fast etc and as soon as they arrive at their destination changing clothes and smoking, drinking and generally enjoying life like the locals. The wealthy can always manage to escape opression. It's the ordinary folk I feel sorry for.