People who don't realise how good they have it: ATC Vs DAA dispute.

[Sunny]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I don't know - that's why I'm asking!

There is no contingency. It's why some Countries have no strike clauses for key personnel like we do for the army and guards.

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

There is no contingency. It's why some Countries have no strike clauses for key personnel like we do for the army and guards.

Maybe we're not too far away

NATS Services Ltd (NSL) has developed and put into service the world’s first full safety certified remote airport contingency control room ...

Heathrow can now be kept open even after a significant event affecting the main control tower

[broken link removed]

Who's to say someone in Heathrow couldn't land our planes?

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

And from their Service page

[broken link removed]

Traffic management

• Development of new operating procedures
• Airspace design
• Traffic flow management tools and processes to optimise capacity
• Experienced controllers to manage ATC operations and training

 

[Latrade]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

There is no contingency. It's why some Countries have no strike clauses for key personnel like we do for the army and guards.

What contingency any employer have for a strike (at least within the EU)? I wouldn't be aware of too much for short duration, little notice action.

The Heathrow contingency while fully certified has me a bit concerned in that there is no visibility of the aircraft at all and is totally reliant on equipment. However, that again is in the case of equipment failure not a strike.

I think the posturing by the Minister on "no strike clause" is just that. Him puffing out his chest to show he'll take 'em on. He won't and he can't.

The reason the army and police have no strike clauses is the potential for civil unrest if they were to strike. While I ahve complete understanding and sympathy with those at the airport yesterday, I wouldn't put passenger inconvinience on a level with civil unrest.

RyanAir Aerlingus cancel or change flights all the time as a result people miss their connections and holidays are ruined. Where's RTE interviewing these people giving their "ruined holiday of a lifetime" woes.

 

[z104]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

What contingency any employer have for a strike (at least within the EU)? I wouldn't be aware of too much for short duration, little notice action.

The Heathrow contingency while fully certified has me a bit concerned in that there is no visibility of the aircraft at all and is totally reliant on equipment. However, that again is in the case of equipment failure not a strike.

I think the posturing by the Minister on "no strike clause" is just that. Him puffing out his chest to show he'll take 'em on. He won't and he can't.

The reason the army and police have no strike clauses is the potential for civil unrest if they were to strike. While I ahve complete understanding and sympathy with those at the airport yesterday, I wouldn't put passenger inconvinience on a level with civil unrest.

RyanAir Aerlingus cancel or change flights all the time as a result people miss their connections and holidays are ruined. Where's RTE interviewing these people giving their "ruined holiday of a lifetime" woes.

Air traffic control centres do not need to see the airplane , Only the control tower need visability. In Shannon the air traffic control is about a mile away from the airport. The control tower is manned alright.

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I think the posturing by the Minister on "no strike clause" is just that. Him puffing out his chest to show he'll take 'em on. He won't and he can't.

Could he not put it to the people to vote?

 

[Latrade]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Could he not put it to the people to vote?

He could. There may be problems with Article 6 of the European Social Charter (especially since Lisbon), but that's a small issue.

Can we have a vote on your T&Cs too?

 

[podgerodge]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Sounds like a cushy number to me!
Of course, these poor darlings must be entitled to the money.
I actually feel sorry for Ryanair. Michael O Leary must be mad to stay in this sad joke of a country.

Michael O' Leary is earning a fair whack himself (For his stressful job?) - presumably you have no problem with that because you believe his populist nonsense?

Do these people not realise that once all the business that rely on airports go bust, there will be no one to pay their inflated wages?

Indeed. Maybe Michael should lower his salary to save Ryanair some money.

I agree with everything umop3p!sdn is saying.

Many jobs require concentration throughout the day. Such as my own job.

Many jobs require continuous learning. Such as my own job.

It's called the normal working world.

What sickens me about this is they will probably get what they want.

This sort of nonsense is my main motivator for emigrating (in 6 months). Bye bye banana republic.

So the main reason you are leaving the country and your challenging job is because - other people are defending their terms and conditions? Wow. What's the reaction of your friends and family when you say "I'm leaving the country - I can't stand other people striking" - Hope you're not moving to France !!

No public or civil servant should be allowed to strike.

Could he not put it to the people to vote?

Excellent. The whole problem sorted by Niallers and Firefly.

 

[S.L.F]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

No public or civil servant should be allowed to strike.

Since this thread is about people who are not Public servants this is a most ill informed post.

And if we didn't have the option to strike do you seriously think the Government wouldn't very quickly pull away any benefits, conditions and job security we have left????

Oh we know this bunch would be happy to go back on deals, they don't have any honour or scruples what-so-ever. Charlie McCreevy made legislation to ensure that 1% of GPD (or whatever) was put into a pension fund which Brian Lenihan raided.

The thing is that Brian Lenihan brought in Legislation to allow him to dip his fingers into it to pay his banker friends.

I would not trust them not to change legislation in a heart beat if it suited them.

Economic conditions have changed, their employer is broke and has to reduce pay and numbers.

Where does the money come from to pay the workers in question?

Is it from taxes or from the airports themselves?

 

[ecstatic]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Anyone who says there not worth the money needs there head examined.

This is one of the most stressful jobs in the world with up to 20 planes on ur screen at one time.

Success rates from training range between 3 off every 20 and thats the people that are accepted to do the training. Thats after many cuts in the rounds before

Its one of the highest alcohol abuse / substance abuse jobs down to stress. Im aware off ATC controllers who dont generally talk for 1-2 hours after arriving home as still in the zone.

Anyone who begrudges these guys there money and sticking up for the rights is insane. France strikes about 7 times a year.

You cannot ban people from working on no pay its crazy.

 

[ecstatic]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

FYI its up to 2K a day for a contract ATC person. Why not go hire a few and see how cheap it is seen as everyones on strike.

 

[Latrade]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Since this thread is about people who are not Public servants this is a most ill informed post.

How could you pick just that one from all the ill informed posts on here.

However, I think the confusion stems from this:

Mr Kavanagh said airports could not operate in an environment of uncertainty and he called on controllers to resume normal working practices, to drop a pay rise claim and to pay a contribution towards their pension.

“They are among the best-paid public servants in the country,” he said.

So the boss of the IAA's Safety Regulation doesn't even know his own employees work for a state-sponsored body (making an after tax profit of €12m per year) and not a state body.

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

FYI its up to 2K a day for a contract ATC person. Why not go hire a few and see how cheap it is seen as everyones on strike.

I was asking for contingency and you have provided it, thanks!

Granted there is additional cost, but all business continuity plans involve extra costs. Therefore maybe we need to increase the % of contractors, so that if/when the permanent staff strike, the general travelling public / local economy are not made to suffer.

 

[DB74]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

FYI its up to 2K a day for a contract ATC person. Why not go hire a few and see how cheap it is seen as everyones on strike.

How much is the strike costing per day?

 

[DublinTexas]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

As a very frequent traveler I appreciate the work done by the controllers and I am all for paying people a fair amount (just as I ask my boss to pay me a fair amount) but this is ridiculous.

The employer introduced new technology that will make the system more secure but the employee refuses to get trained on it or use it or even decide that despite using it for 2 years they don’t want to do it anymore. So the employer suspends the individuals because they do not want to do the work they are hired and we get an all-out strike crippling our state.

We should speed up EUROCONTROL to allow for a single European sky which takes care of the non-approach activity, giving that we are a member since 1965 about time.

Than we should use NATS for example to hire temporary resources until we find people that are willing to do their job or find the service provider that will.

Than we tell the people that don’t want to do their job that they are no longer needed.

Let’s say my company introduces a new piece of software that I have to use daily and I refuse, do you think I’m going to work very long for my company or that anybody else in my company will go into strike for me?
Why is it always that the public service is treated differently?

I’m all for fair working conditions, be it in private or public service, in Ireland or in India but it’s ridiculous that we allow the country to be held hostage by our public service over and over again.

In certain countries public/civil servants are not allowed to strike in return for better pay/better pension and job guarantee. Why can’t we have that? Critical public services should not be allowed to strike in return for defined benefits.

Giving that I pay 3.90 € “Irish Airport Security Charge” for the want to be security staff at Dublin airport followed by an 8.23€ Irish Passenger Charge which contributes to the IAA/DAA and an extra Irish Air Travel Tax of at least 10€ to make up for the incompetence of the government I think I deserve to actually fly when I plan to fly.

 

[Latrade]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

We should speed up EUROCONTROL to allow for a single European sky which takes care of the non-approach activity, giving that we are a member since 1965 about time.

Giving that I pay 3.90 € “Irish Airport Security Charge” for the want to be security staff at Dublin airport followed by an 8.23€ Irish Passenger Charge which contributes to the IAA/DAA and an extra Irish Air Travel Tax of at least 10€ to make up for the incompetence of the government I think I deserve to actually fly when I plan to fly.

I can't disagree with the new technology issue, but I wouldn't limit any ire to the ATC. Many private company employees have fought similar battles for similar "selfish" reasons.

The reason I quoted the EUROCONTROL aspect is just an interesting stat from the Annual Report of the IAA, that Ireland has the 3rd lowest cost base for all EUROCONTROL signatories.

 

[Firefly]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

Excellent. The whole problem sorted by Niallers and Firefly.

I was responding to a post where it was stated that prohibiting civil services from striking can't be done. I asked why could it not put to the people to vote - ie a constitutuinal change if necessary. I never mentioned anything about sorting out the whole problem

 

[S.L.F]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

How could you pick just that one from all the ill informed posts on here.

Ha...

Given the sheer number of ill informed posts here on AAM I'd be all day correcting people (and they of course my posts).

I picked Niallers post because Public and Civil Servants have already taken 2 hits (wage cuts) which most people hav enot taken where as the guys we are talking about have not taken a pay cut yet.

The difference must be pointed out.

 

[z107]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

I picked Niallers post because Public and Civil Servants have already taken 2 hits (wage cuts) which most people hav enot taken where as the guys we are talking about have not taken a pay cut yet.

That's just the start.
Public and civil servants need many more pay and job cuts so that Ireland can start to become competitive again. We need to try to close the private/public gulf that has opened up.

 

[Birroc]

Re: People who don't realise how good they have it

For all the hits the public service have taken, is there any public servant that would leave his/her permanent job for a similar job in the private sector in the current economic climate? Not likely...and rightly so, much too cushy and safe!