No payrises in benchmarking ? "Shock"

[Purple]

I think one of the draw backs with public sector pay is as a nurse - if you apply for a job in another hospital unless it is a promotion - pay remains the same. However atleast in the private sector wages are varied for each job.

That's what the unions wanted and that's what they got.

 

[Pique318]

the plus side of that is if you move from Dublin to the country, you keep your salary the same but everything else is cheaper (well, houses etc.).

The private sector get shafted if they leave Dublin as the wages drop dramatically, but the benefits of not being there make up for it

Edit: Actually, considering the unionised state of nurses pay, does that mean that staff outside Dublin 'already' get pay on a par with their colleagues in Dublin, where things are more expensive ? Is there any benefit to being a nurse in Dublin ? Is there any drawback to being a nurse outside Dublin ?

 

[Purple]

The private sector get shafted if they leave Dublin as the wages drop dramatically, but the benefits of not being there make up for it

...or it can be said that the market decides their level of remuneration. I don't see how this means that they are being shafted.

 

[boris]

the plus side of that is if you move from Dublin to the country, you keep your salary the same but everything else is cheaper (well, houses etc.).

The private sector get shafted if they leave Dublin as the wages drop dramatically, but the benefits of not being there make up for it

Edit: Actually, considering the unionised state of nurses pay, does that mean that staff outside Dublin 'already' get pay on a par with their colleagues in Dublin, where things are more expensive ? Is there any benefit to being a nurse in Dublin ? Is there any drawback to being a nurse outside Dublin ?

PIQUE318 You mentioned that people that move out of Dublin and they have a net benefit from cheaper costs. However I have seen people taking promotions to Dublin in the Public Service where the net increase in pay would not even go towards covering their increased living costs. However they have to take the promotion as they might never get the chance again. So the reverse works as well.

 

[pinkyBear]

Actually, considering the unionised state of nurses pay, does that mean that staff outside Dublin 'already' get pay on a par with their colleagues in Dublin, where things are more expensive ? Is there any benefit to being a nurse in Dublin ? Is there any drawback to being a nurse outside Dublin ?

Well the pay is the same no mater where you work.So absolutly nusring/teaching staff do very well down the country - however jobs may not be as bountiful.

The private sector get shafted if they leave Dublin as the wages drop dramatically

- in some roles certainly, but I know loads of people who work from home and live in the country.

 

[Pique318]

...or it can be said that the market decides their level of remuneration. I don't see how this means that they are being shafted.

Absolutely, I agree that the market dictates this, but there is the notion that just because you live in the country, you are automatically worth less even though you do the same job (sometimes for the same company!)

PIQUE318 You mentioned that people that move out of Dublin and they have a net benefit from cheaper costs. However I have seen people taking promotions to Dublin in the Public Service where the net increase in pay would not even go towards covering their increased living costs. However they have to take the promotion as they might never get the chance again. So the reverse works as well.

Well, if I was offered a job in Dublin which made me worse off overall, I wouldn't take it, especially not in the Public Service. Promotions in the Private sector have the benefit of a 'career move' and you may only have to stay for a year or so before you can look elsewhere and have a better starting point for negotiations. Public service workers moving to Dublin may have to wiat for many years until a position opens up elsewhere and there may be dozens of others with longer service in the queue too. so why on earth would you take a promotion in those circumstances ?

Well the pay is the same no mater where you work.So absolutly nusring/teaching staff do very well down the country - however jobs may not be as bountiful.

Well why then are payrises 'across the board' for all, instead of being pragmatic about it and saying that for those staff in Dublin, well we'll give you more to make life worth it, or cut the wages in the regional hospitals ?

- in some roles certainly, but I know loads of people who work from home and live in the country.

True, but very few companies offer this benefit. Even in IT which I work in.

 

[RainyDay]

I don't read the Daily telegraph so I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge on the subject.
In your considered opinion what are the problems with the public sector and what are the solutions? Do you think the public sector is efficient and well run? Do you think that better management is possible without changing structures, incentives and penalties? Hell, do you think better management is possible while unions have an effective veto on management decisions?

Sorry but I'm not going to answer this here. Partly because it's Friday night, and I'm knackered after a long week serving the public, and partly because I don't feel that this is a 'safe environment'.

In order to work through solutions to any weaknesses (personal or organisational), I would need to feel that I'm in a safe, nurturing environment where those involved in the process are working positively towards a shared goal. Given the level of bile and invective on this thread and others, AAM is a long way from being a safe, nurturing environment for this kind of discussion.

Twenty years ago, plenty of people were "hugely dissatisfied with the entire Goverment, the public sector, and the political system" and most people believed it "highly unlikely that any of these (would) fundamentally change over the next 20-30 years". The country was in such a mess that the late Brian Lenihan Senior said at one stage that no one could expect such a small island to support all 3.5 million of its inhabitants.

Its easy to be fatalistic about economics and to believe that it is impossible to change things for the better. The Irish experience over the past 20 years shows clearly that such fatalism is misguided.

Maybe I'm getting cynical or pessimistic in my old age. My thinking was that there is unlikely to be any substantial political change over the next 20-30 years. We're going to have a series of centre-ish governments, maybe leaning left for one term, leaning right for a couple of terms and with the occasional appearance of the greens. I don't see any appetite among the Irish electorate for dramatic changes in any direction. Hence my assumption major changes in the public sector environment are unlikely.

 

[room305]

Having moved recently into the public sector from the private sector I can say that one thing I've definitely noticed is a dramatic fall in my AAM posting rate ...

 

[z103]

Having moved recently into the public sector from the private sector I can say that one thing I've definitely noticed is a dramatic fall in my AAM posting rate ...

Is that because you're not in the office as much?

 

[Purple]

Is that because you're not in the office as much?

 

[Purple]

Sorry but I'm not going to answer this here. Partly because it's Friday night, and I'm knackered after a long week serving the public, and partly because I don't feel that this is a 'safe environment'.

In order to work through solutions to any weaknesses (personal or organisational), I would need to feel that I'm in a safe, nurturing environment where those involved in the process are working positively towards a shared goal. Given the level of bile and invective on this thread and others, AAM is a long way from being a safe, nurturing environment for this kind of discussion.

That's a pity. Despite our differences of opinion on some issues I respect your opinion and would in very interested in your views on this. (I promise to be nice ).

 

[RainyDay]

Well the big news is that most Irish people don't work in IT or for big Multinationals. Most of them work for small businesses that don't have employer funded pension plans and don't have structured performance reviews. They just work their asses off and hope they will have a job next week. I don't know anyone working in the private sector whose pension is majority funded by their employer. I don't know anyone in the private sector who doesn't count their employers contribution toward their pension as part of their salary.

Those interested in views on IT project failures in both public and private sectors might be interested in [broken link removed].

 

[z103]

That's quite an interesting article rainyday. I thought this was a good quote;

“Local indigenous companies should be given greater opportunities to win public sector contracts. They would have the local view and might be better aware of the
cultural issues that could stymie change projects.”

The tendering process, as it stands, seems to often rule out local indigenous companies.

 

[room305]

The tendering process, as it stands, seems to often rule out local indigenous companies.

What makes you think this?

 

[Howitzer]

That's quite an interesting article rainyday. I thought this was a good quote;

The tendering process, as it stands, seems to often rule out local indigenous companies.

Tosh. The tendering process, any tendering process, works to get the best candidate. Where indigenous companies can't win a contract they need to look at the failings of their bid rather looking for a leg up based on some sort of affirmative action.

 

[z103]

Tosh. The tendering process, any tendering process, works to get the best candidate. Where indigenous companies can't win a contract they need to look at the failings of their bid rather looking for a leg up based on some sort of affirmative action.

Maybe I should have said small indigenous company.

Failing of their bid might be
- not in business long enough
- not enough turnover
- not enough staff
- not enough time/resources to do a more sexy or 'tailored' tender

Tell me how to address those issues.

 

[Pique318]

Tosh. The tendering process, any tendering process, works to get the best candidate.

TBH, I would suspect that tendering processes have been highly influenced by who plays golf with who, backroom deals and personal opinions/favouritism rather than the 'best, most cost-effective and efficient' bid.

 

[Howitzer]

Maybe I should have said small indigenous company.

Failing of their bid might be
- not in business long enough
- not enough turnover
- not enough staff
- not enough time/resources to do a more sexy or 'tailored' tender

Tell me how to address those issues.

A common method is to involve a bid partner on projects that have a logical split. Otherwise be very aggressive on price. This is generally the biggest factor on destinguishing between bids. Make a loss on the project but grow your referencability.

There are a million and one ways to get ahead, relying on hand me downs isn't one of the more constructive ones.

 

[Howitzer]

TBH, I would suspect that tendering processes have been highly influenced by who plays golf with who, backroom deals and personal opinions/favouritism rather than the 'best, most cost-effective and efficient' bid.

Tosh, especially in relation to public sector contracts, though there are exceptions.

 

[z103]

Make a loss on the project but grow your referencability.

Yeah, yeah... Or just don't bother with tenders and make a profit on every sale (like what we do now anyway).