Joint tenancy with sibling

F

frances

Registered User
Messages
23
I inherited the family home 3 years ago jointly with my brother. It is my permanent home since I moved home permanently in 2014 to look after my mother, now deceased. My father also deceased. My brother has his own home.

There is no mortgage on the property. I live on the ground floor and we receive shared rental income under rent a room scheme. I look after everything including maintenance etc. I also paid for total revamp of my space incl new gas boiler etc. which is ongoing, so far 40k outlay.

For the past 2 years, I have been asking him to sell his half to me. I have another property to sell which will provide sufficient funds, that is, if both deals happen in tandem. He keeps giving mixed messages.

Firstly, he will sell if he gets a fair price. I suggested 2 valuations each and find a fair price in the middle. Then 6 months later we said he was going to move in and buy me out. Personally, I think he was calling my bluff unless he really can afford to. Then another row and we both agreed he should seek legal advice.

The latest he said today is

1) he can take as many years as he wants to decide
2) he will move in and buy me out, he said he has enough savings when I asked.
3) he doesn't want to sell his half. When I pushed him, he has agreed that he will tell me within 6 months of his decision.

To be honest, I feel he is playing mind games and pushing me about. You may see my dilemma. I don't care about money once I have enough to buy him out to live in my home in peace.

Have you any advice for me please?
 
1- he can take as long as he wants
2-he can move in but can’t buy you out without your consent.
3-if he doesn’t want too sell,you can force him too do so.let him make up his mind and take it from there
 
Gosh that’s very tough. You need to be careful about recording your outlays. I remember that there is a concept of severance of a joint property but I’m not a property lawyer so someone else might be able to say would that be an option.
 
frances said:
Then another row and we both agreed he should seek legal advice.

To be honest, I feel he is playing mind games and pushing me about. You may see my dilemma. I don't care about money once I have enough to buy him out to live in my home in peace.

Have you any advice for me please?
Click to expand...
You are dithering, and because you are not taking a firm decision your brother is toying with you. So it is up to you, not he, to make a decision. Which should be :

- sell your other property, right now you cannot buy him out, so you are just as bad as he is, because in your post you say you have enough to buy him out, but you contradicted that by saying your other property sale was needed, so which is it?
- make your brother an offer in writing to buy him out (based on realistic valuations), when you have the money
- if he refuses go legal

Only you can end this saga.

BTW is his income revenue complaint as regards rent a room?
 
Bronte said:
Only you can end this saga.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately this can't be resolved without both parties agreeing.

Bronte said:
BTW is his income revenue complaint as regards rent a room?
Click to expand...
That's a very good point. The brother has no entitlement to the Rent-a-Room Relief. Highlighting the potential for a large tax bill might lessen the appeal of a nice steady no hassle income.
 
Do ye have a current agreement on the house you jointly own, maintenance, overheads, rent, the rent a room income.

Ideally your brother should pay 50% of all costs, insurance, maintenance, gas electricity etc., and you should be paying rent for the beneficial use of the house that he does not have. Maybe they cancel each other out? But your brother is not entitled to tax free rent a room scheme as the house is not where he normally lives.

Anyway as Brontë says - get serious.

sell your other property - get the cash in your bank
Get two/three valuations for local auctioneers
Get your solicitor to make a formal offer for his 50% based on your valuations.
If he says no and wishes to buy you out ask for a formal offer.

If he says no then you can sell to him and move elsewhere with your money or you can both rent out the whole house and use it as a source of income and you buy somewhere else.

Your brother is pushing your buttons but you have taken no steps to show you are serious about buying him out either.
 
I am convinced that when situations like this come about you are better off getting a new property of your own and walk away. As it was the original family home even if you buy him out he will always see it as such and will think that he has rights because of that.
 
Pinoy adventure said:
1- he can take as long as he wants
2-he can move in but can’t buy you out without your consent.
3-if he doesn’t want too sell,you can force him too do so.let him make up his mind and take it from there
Click to expand...
Thanks Pinoy, if he can't force me to sell, then I assume the same applies to me, yet yiu said I can force him. I'm confused. Yes I will have to wait for one of his 3 scenarios!! I wanted advice now rather than wait for his decision, whatever that may be!! Thanks
 
Sue Ellen said:
I am convinced that when situations like this come about you are better off getting a new property of your own and walk away. As it was the original family home even if you buy him out he will always see it as such and will think that he has rights because of that.
Click to expand...
Thanks Sue Ellen, although your advice is sound, I won't ever move. I have done enough of that!! I could call his bluff and say I will sell to him, but I'm not that kind of person. He was always welcome here as I am well aware of his possible attachment. I would have gladly continued with our arrangement but I am now in a situation where he is controlling every move I make. and making life difficult for me. I just want to buy him out and have some peace.
 
frances said:
I am now in a situation where he is controlling every move I make. and making life difficult for me. I just want to buy him out and have some peace.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what he knows hence the playing games. You have to ask yourself if you do get to buy him out, at the highest rate probably, will you ever have peace especially when you appear to feel sorry for him because of his possible attachment.
 
Bronte said:
You are dithering, and because you are not taking a firm decision your brother is toying with you. So it is up to you, not he, to make a decision. Which should be :

- sell your other property, right now you cannot buy him out, so you are just as bad as he is, because in your post you say you have enough to buy him out, but you contradicted that by saying your other property sale was needed, so which is it?
- make your brother an offer in writing to buy him out (based on realistic valuations), when you have the money
- if he refuses go legal

Only you can end this saga.

BTW is his income revenue complaint as regards rent a room?
Click to expand...
Thanks Bronte, with all due respect, I think you misread para 3. I don't have the funds. Funds will be from the sale of my other property which I get a small income from.
I have never "dithered". It is he who is dithering. For 2 years I have been asking him to sell to me. It is not up to me, it is up to him to stop pissing about and make a decision. That is all in my post. Up
A few weeks ago, he agreed to sell to me but he would have conditions which he did not reveal and he was to get legal advice. I did not expect the turnaround 2 nights ago. See his 3 scenarios in my post.
I don't agree with your advice to sell my other property right now. If I do and he doesn't sell to me, I will have turfed our good tenants who are friends, pay capital gains and have money depreciating. Then in a few years time,he changes his mind and wants to sell, I probably won't have sufficient funds to cover the buy out. Until a contract is signed, I'm at his mercy and he knows that!!
If I go legal, there is no guarantee that I will win. So no, it is not only me who can end this saga.
One thing I will not do is move. I'm retired and have done enough of moving.
 
Sue Ellen said:
That's exactly what he knows hence the playing games. You have to ask yourself if you do get to buy him out, at the highest rate probably, will you ever have peace especially when you appear to feel sorry for him because of his possible attachment.
Click to expand...
Sue Ellen, I no longer feel sorry for him. He has burnt his bridges! But I am aware of his possible attachment and he has the right to call whenever he wants. If I ever get the opportunity to buy him out, I will have to think long and hard what's best for me. As it stands he constantly says what's best for him. You are 100% correct that he is well aware of the games he is playing and dad to say he is gloating
 
Clamball said:
Do ye have a current agreement on the house you jointly own, maintenance, overheads, rent, the rent a room income.

Ideally your brother should pay 50% of all costs, insurance, maintenance, gas electricity etc., and you should be paying rent for the beneficial use of the house that he does not have. Maybe they cancel each other out? But your brother is not entitled to tax free rent a room scheme as the house is not where he normally lives.

Anyway as Brontë says - get serious.

sell your other property - get the cash in your bank
Get two/three valuations for local auctioneers
Get your solicitor to make a formal offer for his 50% based on your valuations.
If he says no and wishes to buy you out ask for a formal offer.

If he says no then you can sell to him and move elsewhere with your money or you can both rent out the whole house and use it as a source of income and you buy somewhere else.

Your brother is pushing your buttons but you have taken no steps to show you are serious about buying him out either.
Click to expand...
Thanks Clamball, legally I am entitled to live here rent free. When my mum died, I paid for everything. When rental started over a year ago, I paid rent to him for awhile and we shared the house insurance and LPT. Utilities are incl in rent which I share and I have a separate gas bill. I pay for the gardening, and general maintenance. Anything to do with my space I pay for eg new has boiler and rightly so. So far I have paid 40k on renovations of my space and also paid 6k for steel garden shed. I also bought lawnmower etc. I won't go into what he said about all of that, too long winded!!
He is well aware of his tax liabilities, I won't go there on that! He holds no weight on the fact, that me living here means we are not subject to RTB registration. He would be in the dog house otherwise. Yet he goes on about how much more rental potential if I moved out. I do everything with regard to tenants. Generally they are short term during study term. I advertise, respond to emails, meet prospective tenants, do all the cleaning of rental area, wash duvets et when a change over, deal with any issues that arise and so on. He does zilch. So I think I earn my keep!!
I'm thinking of paying all LPT and Insurance myself so he can't throw anything more about money. He said I should be paying esb and WiFi for the full house, even though the tenants pay!!. Hopefully you can see what I'm dealing with.
With regard to moving, I won't be, I have done enough of that. If he refuses to sell and I have already ousted good tenants, paid capital gains, lost rental income and sale proceeds in the bank, the money will eventually be insufficient to buy him out
If he continues to dither for years.
When you say I have taken no steps. If he made a decision, I would be moving as fast as I can. The reason I asked for advice here is because I don't know what steps to take when I don't know what the hell he wants.
I will be going for legal advice very soon though.
If I take him to court, there is no guarantee that he will be forced to sell. Big dilemma indeed.
 
Dr Strangelove said:
@frances

Sentimental reasons aside, is there somewhere else that would meet your housing needs?

I think once this is clear to yourself you can decide strategy as to how to deal with your brother.
Click to expand...
Dr Strangelove. One thing I am certain of is that I will never move again. I have done enough of that. I gave up my career to look after my mum full time at this house and it is now my permanent home
 
DeeKie said:
Gosh that’s very tough. You need to be careful about recording your outlays. I remember that there is a concept of severance of a joint property but I’m not a property lawyer so someone else might be able to say would that be an option.
Click to expand...
I record everything thanks DeeKie. I think there is an Equity civil bill which provides Partition. I will get legal advice on that
 
Severance of joint tenancy, I think, only changes it to tenants in common. I can't see any advance in that in my situation. It means we own half each rather than jointly own the full propery. I know it comes into play in a Will but don't know how that would help me.
 
frances said:
Thanks Bronte, with all due respect, I think you misread para 3. I don't have the funds. Funds will be from the sale of my other property which I get a small income from.
I have never "dithered". It is he who is dithering. For 2 years I have been asking him to sell to me. It is not up to me, it is up to him to stop pissing about and make a decision. That is all in my post. Up
A few weeks ago, he agreed to sell to me but he would have conditions which he did not reveal and he was to get legal advice. I did not expect the turnaround 2 nights ago. See his 3 scenarios in my post.
I don't agree with your advice to sell my other property right now. If I do and he doesn't sell to me, I will have turfed our good tenants who are friends, pay capital gains and have money depreciating. Then in a few years time,he changes his mind and wants to sell, I probably won't have sufficient funds to cover the buy out. Until a contract is signed, I'm at his mercy and he knows that!!
If I go legal, there is no guarantee that I will win. So no, it is not only me who can end this saga.
One thing I will not do is move. I'm retired and have done enough of moving.
Click to expand...
Au contraire you have dithered into 3 years. Even now instead of going legal you don't, and worse you are put up with him giving you no solutions, only complaints while you yourself refuse to budge.

You're even put in pre conditions that your sale must correspond with your purchase. With risible excuses about money, good tenants, friends, CGT, depreciation. You are not at his mercy, you can go legal. Of course the courts will order a sale. I have a sibling who has a court order for a percentage of the marital home, ex spouse either pays up or a sale will be forced. But it takes time. But I'm wasting my typing as you only want to hear what suits you.
 
frances said:
. So far I have paid 40k on renovations of my space and also paid 6k for steel garden shed. I also bought lawnmower etc.
Click to expand...
You renovated the house for yourself. Obviously it adds to the value, depending on what you did. And you cannot live without a boiler. The lawnmower you purchased is a petty thing to bring up, don't you need the grass cut.

You're putting in money based on your half ownership, and on your anticipation of full ownership.

You live rent free, have tax free income, your brother has half an asset that he seems not to want, with you managing everything, so clearly he doesn't need the money, and he's on a no winner as regards the tax man later.

Are you declaring all the rent a room income on your tax return? Or just your half?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top