Is VAT unfair?

D

davidtube

Guest
This is something I've been thinking about for years. Literally about 6 years. If we got rid of VAT and replaced it with an increase in income tax, would that be a simpler and more importantly fairer system?

I would happily write an essay on my reasonings, but I don't think anyone would want to read it.

So does anyone agree or disagree and why?
 
I'd be of the opposite view, favouring taxation on spending rather than income.

Direct income taxation at source was introduced by the Brits around the time of the 1st World War as a "temporary measure" to raise funds to allow the the British, German and Russian royal families to resolve the imperial ambitions and differences between cousins using the lives and money of millions of innocent people as the tools. This was the time the Brit royals adopted the family name "Windsor" as a PR exercise in order to be seen by their subjects as truly British, old chap, rather than German.

Like sheep, when we won partial political independence, we continued with the seriously flawed taxation and administration models we inherited and to this day we match the Brits step for step, blindly repeating every single mistake they make, including the naming of benefits and governmaent departments, organisation, and nearly all of Blair's quangos, responsible for nothing and aswerable to no-one, eating up huge chunks of direct and indirect taxation.

I'd read your essay, but I wouldn't hold my breath until its implemented.
 
mathepac, that's quite interesting. I'd never heard where income tax first came from.

Can I ask why you prefer to tax spending rather than income. It is to encourage saving?
 
I would also favour taxing spending over income. Few reasons being that there are people who at all cost will try to avoid income tax so at least they give something back on their spending. Likewise there are people who unduly are in receipt of state benefits some who use that money in a bad way (they really don't know or care for budgeting), thus through their spending they are giving something back to revenue.

However I do feel that VAT needs to revised ie the rates and also types of items that are within various VAT brackets.
Also income tax I feel needs to go back to three bands. Low income, middle income and high income with the high income being over 100K
 
That is one good advantage of VAT, that it's hard to avoid. Although it's not impossible to avoid and lots of business goes on undeclared to avoid VAT charges.

The other major advantage of VAT is it supposedly taxes luxuries not necessities. I don't believe this works in practice. For example, some of these "luxuries" include heating your house, while children's clothes (apparently clothes aren't necessary for adults) aren't taxed, including (correct me if I'm wrong) a £150 pair of trainers.

The only argument for VAT that i can't think of that is truly valid, is charging it on products that have a detrimental effect to society. The VAT can count towards reducing negative effects the good causes such as pollution or illness. Currently though there's pretty much a flat rate of VAT apart from on main the pollutants. So I'd keep VAT on certain goods, but for the vast majority, remove it.

Having said that, I think this outweighs the positive side of VAT. The main reason I disagree with it is that a millionaire who buys an alarm clock pays a much lower percent of their income in taxes, than someone earning minimum wage (making it a regressive tax). If the 17.5% (in the UK) were added to income tax instead, they would both be losing the same amount of their income.

Even better (in my left-wing mind) would be the millionaire paying an extra 20% and the minimum income person paying 10% (the extra 2.5% tax of extremely rich more than making up for the reduction in the low income tax, and making it a progressive tax).

The tax on the clock using VAT could have cost the low income person half an hour's wages, while only costing the high earner 1 minute's wages. The income tax method (using the 10% and 20% i just came up with) would reduce the time taken to earn the tax money to 17 minutes for the low earner, but increased the time for the high earner by only a few seconds. A vast improvement for the person on low income, and an almost insignificant decline for the high earner.

NOTE: I haven't worked out what percentages of income tax would recover loss of VAT, the figures above a just estimates.
 
mathepac, that's quite interesting. I'd never heard where income tax first came from....
That's not what I said. There have always been taxes on income / wealth / production, levied both by churches and civil powers. The change introduced during WWI was direct taxation of income / wages at source i.e. PAYE.

Previous taxes were retrospective, gathered at harvest-time, etc.
 
That's not what I said. There have always been taxes on income / wealth / production, levied both by churches and civil powers. The change introduced during WWI was direct taxation of income / wages at source i.e. PAYE.

Previous taxes were retrospective, gathered at harvest-time, etc.

From Wiki :

"The UK introduced PAYE in 1944 [1], following trials in 1940-1 [2]. As with many of the United Kingdom’s institutional arrangements, the way in which the state collects income tax through PAYE owes much of its form and structure to the peculiarities of the era in which it was devised. The financial strain that the Second World War placed upon the country meant that the Treasury needed to collect more tax from many more people. This posed significant challenges to the government, and to the many workers and employers who had previously never come into contact with the tax system".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAYE

Different war - maybe more justified?!
 
:) Never take anyone's word for anything. Always back it up with a check on wikipedia.
 
The main reason I disagree with it is that a millionaire who buys an alarm clock pays a much lower percent of their income in taxes, than someone earning minimum wage (making it a regressive tax).
Put isn't that irrelevant? If a millionaire never spends his money but leaves it in the bank won't he have the same living standard as someone on the poverty line (obviously by choice). As soon as he starts to spend then you tax him, like everyone else. Does it really matter if he has lots of paper in the bank?
 
That is one good advantage of VAT, that it's hard to avoid. Although it's not impossible to avoid and lots of business goes on undeclared to avoid VAT charges.

VAT is the most evaded, and the most complicated, of all taxes.
 
Having said that, I think this outweighs the positive side of VAT. The main reason I disagree with it is that a millionaire who buys an alarm clock pays a much lower percent of their income in taxes, than someone earning minimum wage (making it a regressive tax).

Actually what you are proposing is a regressive tax. A regressive tax is one in which people get taxed by a higher percentage when their earnings rise i.e. discourages a more productive life.

VAT only is a neutral tax regime as everyone pays the same percentage.

A progressive tax regime is one which encourages people to be more productive.

I've asked this question before on this forum & elsewhere, but why should a millionaire who is buying an alarm clock pay a higher rate of VAT (or any tax)? I've never received a credible answer. The only response I've ever got is a sour grapes "because s/he earns more", which doesnt make sense. Taxing people more for working harder or better penalises production which hinders the economy.
 
luckily we have an irish tax system,where only the poor pay tax and the irish royalty,ie the racing fraternity the politicians and the upper crust pay no tax,much better than the brit system as mentioned above.
 
luckily we have an irish tax system,where only the poor pay tax and the irish royalty,ie the racing fraternity the politicians and the upper crust pay no tax,much better than the brit system as mentioned above.

Name three Irish politicians who pay no tax.
 
Actually I heard that Income tax was invented as a temporary measure to help pay for the crimea war (under the reign of Queen Victoria).

Personally, I'd rather they scrap income tax and replace it with VAT.

That means I'd only pay tax when I bought something, and if I can't afford it , I won't buy it. If I can afford it, I'll pay the VAT as part of the price.
 
VAT is the most evaded, and the most complicated, of all taxes.
I’m not disagreeing with you but I'm not really sure about what is the most evaded tax, although VAT is tax that's very difficult to avoid for consumers. Completely agree that it's complicity is one of it's flaws.

Have you tried reading the Wikipedia documentation on how articles are authored and managed?
Yeah, just try adding some incorrect information to Wikipedia and see how long it last. Wikipedia is a lot more well managed and accurate than people give it credit for. Less credible than a traditional encyclopaedia, a lot more credible than word of mouth, and containing a much greater amount of knowledge.


But isn't that irrelevant? If a millionaire never spends his money but leaves it in the bank won't he have the same living standard as someone on the poverty line (obviously by choice). As soon as he starts to spend then you tax him, like everyone else. Does it really matter if he has lots of paper in the bank?
As you say, it's by their choice they aren't spending the money. At the other end of the scale, the poorest people can't afford to keep savings. At the end of the day, the money is going to be spent somewhere, or it is just paper in the bank, so why tax it when it's spent, under (to me) the less justified method.


Actually what you are proposing is a regressive tax. A regressive tax is one in which people get taxed by a higher percentage when their earnings rise i.e. discourages a more productive life.
Hold on, let me just check Wikipedia...


Sorry, I think Wikipedia agrees with me.
Wikipedia said:
A regressive tax is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases.[1][2][3][4][5] In simple terms, it imposes a greater burden (relative to resources) on the poor than on the rich.


VAT only is a neutral tax regime as everyone pays the same percentage.

It's neutral in the sense that it costs everyone the same amount, but as a proportion of income, it costs poor people more.


I've asked this question before on this forum & elsewhere, but why should a millionaire who is buying an alarm clock pay a higher rate of VAT (or any tax)? I've never received a credible answer. The only response I've ever got is a sour grapes "because s/he earns more", which doesnt make sense. Taxing people more for working harder or better penalises production which hinders the economy.

It's a very important question and it's not the first time I've been asked it.
In our fairly free economy, people don't earn money based on how hard they work. Firstly, people earn money based on the supply of that type of labour. So low skilled employees (almost can do the job), no matter how hard the person works receive a small wage.
Do highly skilled people work harder to achieve these skills? In some cases, for example doctors or pilots (I assume). But a lot of the time they don't, for example a typical historian compared with a marketing executive.
If you take professions in the public eye for example, take a class of budding actors. 30 people all working to varying degrees. It's not that hard to imagine a film director coming along and picking the star of his next film to be the person he judges to have the most talent out of the class, as opposed to their friend who spends 20 minutes more per day practising.

That person goes on to become famous and ends up earning 100 times what the next highest earning brings in from the class. Even if that person was the most talented, and hard working, they certainly weren't 100 times harder working. It's an extreme example but something you find to a lesser degree everywhere.
A more common type of example; me and my partner. She works night shifts caring for old people in a home. She's paid minimum wage. I once put a website together in two days which made me more money everyday before I woke up in the morning than she made in a 12 hour shift. If half my money was taxed away, it wouldn't affect my quality of life much, if she had a 10% increase in taxes, she'd find it difficult to deal with.

Secondly income is based on the local economy, so someone in London earns more money than someone in... er, Nairobi. Well that's mostly just the luck of where you're born and brought up.

Thirdly... I can't think off the top of my head and this post is long enough.

So in summary, I don't think wages are fairly handed out depending on how hard you work, therefore taxing people more that earn 10 times as much for, say the same amount of time spent working (or even twice as much time working) is justified. That's why regressive tax is bad.




Thanks for your replies. It's good to get this off my chest and discus it with people.
 
Back
Top