Is this social welfare abuse?

Charlie O Connor Speaking at the joint commitee of social welfare 10-june-2009. I am interested in the reference in the excellent presentation to the number of reports of suspected fraud from members of the public. The figures are incredible - an increase of over 700%. It was pointed out in the presentation - I presume accurately - that a significant number of those reports were found to have no basis. Is there any way the Department can give the public a message about this kind of busybody activity? I presume the number of reports is so high because people want to wind up neighbours or are upset about progress neighbours are making. Have the Department or other agencies a view on how this can be better controlled? I am sure much staff time and resources are wasted on checking these spurious reports
 
truthseeker said:
While I partially agree with this point, the OP said that this person was boasting about the situation and saying she wouldnt even consider looking for work as the benefits were too good.

I dont think that as a society we should be reporting people just because we see them living a certain lifestyle and we are making assumptions, but the reality is that if someone is boasting about their fraud they deserve to be reported.
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I don't think people need turn a blind eye, but one persons 'boasting' may be taken out of context. Presumably the OP was not in direct conversation and was just eaves dropping, so the person doing the boasting may have just been doing what alot of Irish people tend to do which is making light of an issue.
 
Bronte said:
We only had a case in the papers in the last couple of weeks.
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link?

I know a couple of stories myself where the person was doing nothing wrong and had a terrible time dealing with social welfare.
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welfare can be bullies too and can be dealt with by complaining to Ombudsman. I would not take any abuse from them.

As regards the FOI Act i now have learned from a reliable source that yes a person can request such information but welfare can refuse it under sections 21, 23 and 26. The person could then appeal it to the information commissioner.
 
mat.s.w. said:
Charlie O Connor Speaking at the joint commitee of social welfare 10-june-2009. I am interested in the reference in the excellent presentation to the number of reports of suspected fraud from members of the public. The figures are incredible - an increase of over 700%. It was pointed out in the presentation - I presume accurately - that a significant number of those reports were found to have no basis. Is there any way the Department can give the public a message about this kind of busybody activity? I presume the number of reports is so high because people want to wind up neighbours or are upset about progress neighbours are making. Have the Department or other agencies a view on how this can be better controlled? I am sure much staff time and resources are wasted on checking these spurious reports
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What good is the FOI if your neighbour sends in an anonomyous letter to SW.

Where is all this going to end .

  • If you suspect your neighbour has no dog licence for dog , should you report.
  • If you suspect your neighours car tax is out of date , should you report.
  • If you suspect your neighbour have no tv licence , should you report.
  • If your neighbour is driving on L plates , should you report
  • If your neighbour has Sky Movies ' for free , should you report
So if your neighbour is 'boasting ' does it justify reporting .

ps. I have never drawn SW in my lifetime , so far and dont be-grudge my neighbours either.
 
allthedoyles said:
What good is the FOI if your neighbour sends in an anonomyous letter to SW ...
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Yet another potential Mastermind finalist :rolleyes:
allthedoyles said:
...
Where is all this going to end .

  • If you suspect your neighbour has no dog licence for dog , should you report.
  • If you suspect your neighours car tax is out of date , should you report.
  • If you suspect your neighbour have no tv licence , should you report.
  • If your neighbour is driving on L plates , should you report
  • If your neighbour has Sky Movies ' for free , should you report
So if your neighbour is 'boasting ' does it justify reporting ...
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I dunno, but this IMHO is a rant, off-topic and irrelevant.
allthedoyles said:
... ps. I have never drawn SW in my lifetime , so far and dont be-grudge my neighbours either.
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Fair play to you, and no-one else seems to begrudge people their just entitlements either. The thread topic is a question posed by OP about a specific set of circumstances, apparently "social welfare abuse" or fraud which is a criminal matter - do you have an opinion on that?
 
no its not okay...you cannot claim 2 types of social welfare payments at the same time, ie..,single parents allowance and unemployment benefit and bet she is not telling about her partner living with her ! and they will act on the letter. dont feel bad,its her fault and she has put her child in the predicament, not you.
 
allthedoyles said:
no opinion on criminal matters .
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Well I do.

Recently, have visited with family for father's day, I was driving home late at night. I spotted a small blue Dublin-registered car in front of me being driven in a manner I considered erratic on a narrow country road.

I slowed down, dropped well back and phoned ahead to the nearest Garda station (voice activated directory enquiries with a request to be put through, all hands-free and legal :)) giving details of the car, location and the problem as I saw it.

A couple of miles further on, a Garda car approached from the opposite direction, I flashed my lights and pointed after the blue car ahead of me. The Garda car did a U-turn, followed the blue car for a while, then turned on the flashers and stopped it. When I passed them, I got a wave from the Guards, my last contact with the situation.

The point of my post and the relevance to OP's dilemma? We all have common sense, we all have life-experience and observation skills, we all know enough to know when some situation isn't right and mostly we know enough to listen to our consciences and do the right thing.
 
It is possible I suffer from an irrational fear of civil servants/the state and this would not be specific to social welfare.

Jane Doe - the recent case was a suicide and a revenue bailiff. I don't blame the bailiff only doing his job, but the state/government body that sends people out need to realise they are dealing with human beings. When you are confronted with the might of government it can be a very hard thing to deal with. Another example that I personally know of is Gardai interfering in the running of a business (a long time ago).

Some of the posts here seem to be about everybody being a good citizen, but some of them smack of being busybodies and others begrudgery. I cannot fathom out people interfering in other people's lives.

In a broader context I thought Denis O' Brien made a good point recently about how a tribunal has blackened his name for years and has reached no conclusions and yet he is presumed not innocent but guilty without the benefit of a proper court hearing. This is the state at it's worst.

In the OP's situation it's all based on hearsay for goodness sake.

I agree with allthedoyles point, where do you stop reporting people. I know loads of people who have done the things he referred to. One of my parents is forever paying the car tax late, should I report this !
 
Bronte said:
I cannot fathom out people interfering in other people's lives.
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Social welfare frauds are interfering in YOUR life, your taxes wouldnt be so high if the SW bill wasnt so high.

If my neighbour has no dog licence or no tv licence or has sky for free its not costing me anything. If my neighbour is fraudently claiming SW that my taxes fund its costing me something.
 
Best look at some statistics:

1. Only around 10 % of the one million paye employees in Ireland file tax returns and claim their correct tax credits annually . Do the Tax Office report the other 900,000 for failing to ask for P21 ?.

2. Less than 10 % of SW claims would be seen as suspect/fraudulent .

So who are the winners here .................the Taxpayer or the Irish Government aka Irish Taxpayer
 
truthseeker said:
Social welfare frauds are interfering in YOUR life, your taxes wouldnt be so high if the SW bill wasnt so high.

If my neighbour has no dog licence or no tv licence or has sky for free its not costing me anything. If my neighbour is fraudently claiming SW that my taxes fund its costing me something.
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So would you pay cash for any jobs around the house?
How many of our resident good citizens have ever asked 'best price for cash'?

I don't believe just saying I pay cash its up to the tradesman to declare it constitutes doing it by the book before someone says it.
 
MrMan said:
So would you pay cash for any jobs around the house?
How many of our resident good citizens have ever asked 'best price for cash'?

I don't believe just saying I pay cash its up to the tradesman to declare it constitutes doing it by the book before someone says it.
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No I wouldnt. Any jobs Ive ever had done around the house were done my me, a friend who didnt charge anyway, or a registered company who made out a VAT invoice.
 
To the OP, are you definite in your facts

. My friend has a council house. she was a single mother. She met a new guy and had a kid with him and he lives in teh house too. She contacted the council about this and informed them, her rent was raised, all above board. A nosy neighbough complained them, but obviously didnt know the facts as it was all above board.

Facts first, then report.
 
truthseeker said:
No I wouldnt. Any jobs Ive ever had done around the house were done my me, a friend who didnt charge anyway, or a registered company who made out a VAT invoice.
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I would imagine you are in the minority on that one.
 
"Was she told through an FOI request or informally?"

She rang them up and told them that she was entitled to the information under the freedom of information act and she was duely given it. She works in a fairly senior position in the HSE so is very well aware of her rights with regard to things like this.

I will ask her next time I see her what her opinion if with regard to reporting SW fraud and the FOI.

Personally if I actually did have a problem with someone making claims (which I dont) I would have no issue with them knowing my name. It is pure cowardice to report someone for something like this anonimously at any rate. No wonder there is so much bogus reporting.

By the way mathpac, everytime someone disagrees with you it does not mean their post is an "off topic rant".
 
lightswitch said:
Afraid not. If someone makes a complaint against you to a government body you are entitled to know who that complaint was made by. A neighbour of mine was told by the council who complained about her dogs barking. Just glad it wasn't me!

Makes sense really, deters people from making malicious complaints and wasting departments time.
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This is incorrect.

If someone makes a complaint, you are entitled to be told the nature of the complaint, but you are never entitled to get the name of the person who made the complaint. The reason you are entitled to know the nature of the complaint is so that you have the chance to defend any allegations. FOI forbids the name of the complainer to be given out.

e.g. If Mr A complains to SW that Mr B is working and claiming dole, Mr B will be told that SW has received a complaint that he is working and claiming dole, but they will never reveal that it is Mr. A who made the complaint.

A neighbour of mine was told by the council who complained about her dogs barking.
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If this is true, then the council official would be liable for disciplinary action, an investigation by the Ombudsman and possibly being sued for damages.
 
csirl said:
. FOI forbids the name of the complainer to be given out.
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t can be requested, refused and appealed but unlikely to be give out
If this is true, then the council official would be liable for disciplinary action, an investigation by the Ombudsman and possibly being sued for damages.
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a lot of officials are not very well up on FOI, was told that by a very reliable source
 
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