Is my child maintenance fair?

[Inserteneo]

I am 29 and I have 2 children from an old relationship that did not work out, the mother of the 2 children is now looking for more maintenance and is threatening to go to court if I do not pay more. However I feel I am paying a fair amount. I would like you to look at the following finances and give me your opinion on how much you think I should pay, or how much you think a judge would award.

Currently I pay €130 per week and €100 per child at Christmas and I pay half of the going back to school costs. I also pay for half of any medical/dental costs and contribute towards activities such as football, summer camps etc. The kids aged 7 & 5 stay with me 1-2 nights a week and I take them for extra time when I am off work. She does not work, if she did I can provide childcare Thursday to Monday via myself and my Mother.

I am temporarily living back at home with my Mother and Father until I have saved for a deposit to purchase a house with my partner within the next 14 months. I am also due a 10% salary increment at the end of this year.

Per Week Income & Expenditure after tax.

My Income:
€560 Wages
Car mileage that covers car usage for work

My Expenses:
€45 Car Loan
€10 Life Insurance
€10 Car Tax
€15 Car Insurance
€10 Car Upkeep
€25 Car Diesel
€5 Mobile Phone
€20 Work Breakfast & Lunches
€50 Rent To Parents
€125 Mortgage Savings
€130 Maintenance
€30 (Kids Birthdays, Xmas, school, doctors/dental, sports, etc)

Total = €475
Total Income - Expenses = €85


Her Income
€247.60 One Parent Family Payment
€60 Childrens Allowance
€10 Fuel Allowance
€130 Maintenance
€95 Rent Allowance
Total = €542.60

Her Expenses:
€185 Rent
€15 Heating
€20 Electricity
€20 UPC
€100 Groceries
€10 Car Tax
€15 Car Insurance
€10 Car Upkeep
€50 Car Diesel
€5 Mobile Phone
€30 (Kids birthdays, Xmas, school, doctors/dental, sports, etc)
€25 Kids Clothes

Total = €485
Total Income - Expenses = €57.60

I know what most of her expenses are and for the ones that I am unsure about or that are variable I put them at a higher rate by searching for average costs online.

 

[noproblem]

It's always difficult to solve problems like this. Rearing 2 children is hard, very hard, as is trying to have a life. Seems you have got a new relationship and life, but your wife has the responsibility of being at home with the children, this is not easy and we're not told if she has a life outside of the home. I see you have €255 set aside for maintenance and mortgage savings, she doesn't have that privelage and it adds up to a substantial amount every year. She uses €50 in diesel every week, that's a lot of mileage and you're almost fuel free in fairness. Both your car insurance premiums seem very high. All in all I think you could give the mother of your children more than you are, maybe in the region of €100, not forgetting you're going to get a 10% increase of your own.

 

[Inserteneo]

It's always difficult to solve problems like this. Rearing 2 children is hard, very hard, as is trying to have a life. Seems you have got a new relationship and life, but your wife has the responsibility of being at home with the children, this is not easy and we're not told if she has a life outside of the home. I see you have €255 set aside for maintenance and mortgage savings, she doesn't have that privelage and it adds up to a substantial amount every year. She uses €50 in diesel every week, that's a lot of mileage and you're almost fuel free in fairness. Both your car insurance premiums seem very high. All in all I think you could give the mother of your children more than you are, maybe in the region of €100, not forgetting you're going to get a 10% increase of your own.

I think you should reread my post, also we were never married.

She is not working and has no intention to work, childcare has been offered to her for 5 days of the week free of charge and arrangements can easily be made for Tuesday and Wednesday if she had to work for these days. I have a duty of care to support my children but I do not have a duty of care to support her, she has made the choice not to work.

I am currently living at home with my parents and it is only a temporary solution and I cannot stay after the first Christmas after turning 30. This is has been my parents rule, not just for me but for my older siblings who also moved out at or before the first Christmas after turning 30.

If I was to give her an extra €100 euro a week I would not be able to afford to save for a mortgage, never mind having to pay rent or pay for a mortgage when the time comes, paying the extra would also mean that somebody who does not have a job would have more disposable income than somebody who does, but still have a house and everything provided for, I cannot see how that would be fair?

The 10% increment does not equate to a 10% bump in take home pay. I will only take home an extra €134 a month after tax has been paid, which I will need to pay for a mortgage and/or rent when the time comes.

 

[Bronte]

It doesn't matter if you were married or not. We do not have her viewpoint on this. It's very difficult when two people split up and income is needed to support two houses.

You have offered childcare and you see her refusal of this as a decision not to work. Perhaps she does not wish the children to be minded by you and your relations. I'm not saying it's the case but things are rarely as black and white as one person in a failed relationship states. It could simple be that she has chosen to stay at home. It's very difficult to have a working life around young children in Ireland as the school ending times are so early.

You're right you don't have to support her. Irish taxpayers for the most part are actually paying her and paying something also towards the upkeep of both of your children.

What you need to find out is would a court order higher maintenance. You should ask a good family solicitor who with the figures you've supplied should be able to tell you very quickly what is the likelyhood of this. There are no winners but try and make it not a lose lose situation for your children.

The court threat might be idle. It's not like your ex is living in opulance based on the figures you've provided but neither are you.

 

[Inserteneo]

Another problem in our society are people who have kids in order to secure a financial future for themselves. If she was to work the kids could easily be supported by hers and my earnings.

In relation to the childcare, I have the kids at the weekends anyway so she could if she wanted get a part time job for these hours without giving any additional time. It has also never been expressed by her that the issue with childcare is that she does not want me or any of my family member providing it. It also wouldn't be unusual for her to ring me or my mother every week or so to collect the kids and look after them after school until after dinner time and sometimes overnight if she has plans, this of course would be additional time to the 1-2 nights I have them each weekend.

I'm trying to make things as pleasant as possible for the kids, I think my ex thinks I am on a very large income, I have on multiple occasions tried to explain my finances to her but she doesn't want to listen.

If she was to obtain a part time job on lets say €9.50 an hour for 20 hours a week, which would be weekends and 1 week night she would be much better off than if she did not work, or compared to if she worked full time. I will more than likely have to seek solicitors advice as I think we will end up in court soon.

Not Working:
Her Income
€247.60 One Parent Family Payment
€60 Childrens Allowance
€10 Fuel Allowance
€130 Maintenance
€95 Rent Allowance
Total = €542.60
Total Income - Expenses = €57.60

Working 20 hours at €9.50 an hour
Her Income
€190 Wages
€155.10 One Parent Family Payment
€60 Childrens Allowance
€10 Fuel Allowance
€130 Maintenance
€95 Rent Allowance
Total = €640.10
Total Income - Expenses = €155.10

Working 39 hours at €9.50
Her Income
€335.56 Wages
€81.86 FIS
€60 Childrens Allowance
€130 Maintenance
Total = €607.42
Total Income - Expenses = €122.42

 

[Bronte]

I can well see why she wouldn't want to work to get 607 - 542 = 65 Euro. Then there's now not just a job but managing a house and kids too. The exta costs of petrol to go to work, clothes for work, parking, childminding toing and frowing.

She'd also presumably lose the medical card.

These are the considerations she is mulling over.

 

[Inserteneo]

She doesn't need to include childcare as it can be provided free of charge. I just checked the medical card and as long as she doesn't earn over €260 a week she can keep her medical card if she has one.

I have included her diesel at €50 which is a very high rate, unless she was working miles away. The only other possible expenses are work clothes and parking, but we are not in the city so I cannot see there being parking charges where we we live for working.

If she was to go by the second rate:
Working 20 hours at €9.50 an hour
Her Income
€190 Wages
€155.10 One Parent Family Payment
€60 Childrens Allowance
€10 Fuel Allowance
€130 Maintenance
€95 Rent Allowance
Total = €640.10
Total Income - Expenses = €155.10

She would then be up on money each week regardless, also she would then be providing more of things herself instead of the social providing it all and over a few years she could progress to higher pay. If she does not work at all she will never be in a good financial situation, no matter what age the kids are. It has been 10 years since she has last worked.

 

[epicaricacy]

You haven't mentioned how much extra your ex-partner is looking for? If it's approx. 50 Euros per week, I'd suggest handing it over.

I'd suggest that you come to an informal agreement with your partner. A couple I know have spent thousands on solicitor's fees over similar issues that could easily have been resolved between the 2 of them. A collaborative approach wins over an adversarial approach every time. Besides, I wouldn't be too confident of a judge listening to your argument re. you saving for a mortgage etc. when your kids are living in the rental sector. The 125 you're saving for a mortgage per week is not an expense. If you and your current partner had to rent an apartment, how much would it cost you per week? Unless you're living in Dublin I doubt it would cost you and oyur partner 175 each per week (125 mortage saving + 50 rent to your parents). How much is your car loan for and when is it finishing? Where are the expenses for your ex's clothes etc? Are they included in the disposable income figure of 57 Euros per week?

What day off his your ex supposed to have if she's expected to work Thursday through til Monday in addition to looking after the children for the rest of the week? It seems like your ex is expected to completely change her life around and take on the added stress of working on top of being the primary carer for your children so that you can save for your mortgage with another woman. I'm not too sure how that would sound in court.

To put things in context - another friend (his net wage would be less than yours) is currently handing over 450 per month maintenance for one child. Both parents are currently working in the same organisation on the same wage and he has the child 3 nights per week. They also split the childcare costs of 150 per week.

As I've written - I'd suggest you hand over an agreed extra amount of at least 200 - 400 per month and watch the attitude re. her apparent dislike of work etc. - if your toxic attitude spills out in court you could walk into paying twice what you're paying at the moment and you'd only have yourself to blame.

 

[mathepac]

In order to balance the books and to be fair, you need to include your income from your mileage allowance, otherwise discount your motoring expenses heavily.

 

[noproblem]

I think you should reread my post, also we were never married.

She is not working and has no intention to work, childcare has been offered to her for 5 days of the week free of charge and arrangements can easily be made for Tuesday and Wednesday if she had to work for these days. I have a duty of care to support my children but I do not have a duty of care to support her, she has made the choice not to work.

I am currently living at home with my parents and it is only a temporary solution and I cannot stay after the first Christmas after turning 30. This is has been my parents rule, not just for me but for my older siblings who also moved out at or before the first Christmas after turning 30.

If I was to give her an extra €100 euro a week I would not be able to afford to save for a mortgage, never mind having to pay rent or pay for a mortgage when the time comes, paying the extra would also mean that somebody who does not have a job would have more disposable income than somebody who does, but still have a house and everything provided for, I cannot see how that would be fair?

The 10% increment does not equate to a 10% bump in take home pay. I will only take home an extra €134 a month after tax has been paid, which I will need to pay for a mortgage and/or rent when the time comes.

As someone else mentioned, it doesn't matter if you were married or not. You asked for an opinion and I gave you mine. Silly me from what I'm reading since.

 

[Branz]

I have a duty of care to support my children but I do not have a duty of care to support her, she has made the choice not to work.

I don't know where this warped thinking came from with your duty of care stuff.
Go to court with that statement and you will be blown away by the judge.

OP you are not even on the hind tit here in any legal negotiations: she holds the entire deck.

You and your new partner would be better renting until the kids are 18 because she will keep coming back to the well, a well which will be more fruitful if you get married.

 

[Bronte]

Another problem in our society are people who have kids in order to secure a financial future for themselves. If she was to work the kids could easily be supported by hers and my earnings.
42

It's amazing that you seem to think you had no part in this. It's also rather sad that you are buying yourself a house but your children have to live in rented accommodation.

Would she not lose the rent allowance if she works.

 

[Bronte]

she holds the entire deck.

You and your new partner would be better renting until the kids are 18 because she will keep coming back to the well, a well which will be more fruitful if you get married.

He also might be smart not to get married. This has all the hallmarks of going horribly wrong.

 

[Thirsty]

Solution is quite simple in my view;

offer to take custody of the children, be their primary carer, find rental accommodation and a landlord who will take Rent Allowance and be prepared to move every few years. Live on Social Welfare for the next decade and deal with an asshole of an ex-partner....

 

[Inserteneo]

After another weekend of not being allowed to see my children I have decided that it is time to go to court. We will be going to court for maintenance and split custody (Friday after school to Monday, with grandmother dropping to school on Monday morning). I have spoken to my employer and if in the future my ex manages to find Monday-Friday work I am allowed to change my shift patterns for overnight weekends so I can take the kids during the week.

I have not been completely forthcoming with the situation as there are other factors that I did not include, my ex has a drug problem, she spends anywhere from €50 to €150 per week on weed (Marijuana). We had a sit down yesterday and discussed maintenance and access/custody. She wants me to pay her €250 maintenance per week including still splitting school/christmas/birthdays/medical/dental and that until I pay this amount I am not allowed to see my children. With the extras it works out at around 50% of my salary including the 10% increment, this is just not possible!

In regards to rent I live in South Dublin and she lives in North County Dublin close to Meath where rents are much cheaper. The solicitor reiterated that I do not have to support my ex as we were not a cohabiting couple after 1st of January 2011. That I just have to maintain the kids, but because she is not working I will be made contribute a larger portion to their share of reasonable expenses. The solicitor has suggested €150 per week with conditions. In relation to my current partner even if we were to get married it would not make any difference to the maintenance I would have to pay as my partner has no legal responsibility for my children and the maintenance can only be assessed on my personal income and reasonable expenditure, although expenses will be halved in terms of rent/bills etc for the house.

It will be recommended that she attend a rehabilitation clinic appointed by the court during the times that I have the kids and that maintenance paid is directly to rent and other bills. The main reason for this is she has not paid rent in almost 3 months and has not paid for tax/insurance but still drives the car, I can only imagine where the money went.

Although some comments have not been the nicest and seem to be a direct stab at me I understand that none of you are in the current situation I am in and it can be very hard for me to convey to you the extent of the problem and it can easily come across that I am being stubborn.

 

[noproblem]

I don't want to begin thinking of where her €150 per week comes from for the weed. One thing I can tell you, by going to court won't lighten your load and that's for sure. I'm taking into a/c that it's your version of events we have and that's all. The judge will have everything and by everything it will be just that. Good luck.

 

[epicaricacy]

That's the cheapest 'drug problem' - 50 Euros per week - I've ever heard of. The idea that someone needs drug rehabilitation for smoking an 8th of an ounce of weed per week is absolutely ludicrous and will be laughed out of court. Are you aware of the current strain on services in the greater Dublin area, where 'actual drug addicts' (i.e. people with out of control addiction disorders) are on interminable waiting lists for treatment? Besides, what rehab centre offers a Thursday to Monday service? If your ex has such a problem with drugs, how come it took her asking you for extra maintenance (over 4 years since you left her) that prompted you to seek the assistance of the courts?

The simple reality is that you are not giving her enough money and she can't survive on the money that you are contributing towards maintenance - hence driving without tax / insurance etc. After all, a night out with her friends would cost more than the funds she's apparently spending on what you naively / conveniently term her 'drug problem'.

This 'my ex has a drug problem' (and your solictor's ideas re. 'conditions') approach could end up backfiring very badly on you. As I said the last day - collaborative versus adversarial is the way to proceed if you want to avoid incurring extra costs (including possible defamation of character re. your spurious and I presume unsubstantiated claims re. her being a drug addict).

The only person set to gain monetarily (besides your ex getting the princely sum of 1.50 per day extra per child under the new conditional arrangement) is the solicitor. Any judge worth his salt will see straight through your 'story' of faux concern for your children. The judge could easily see that vindictiveness, revenge and malice are driving your behaviour. Don't say you haven't been warned!!

 

[Thirsty]

I understand that none of you are in the current situation

Maybe not, but in my case I raised two children on my own and had to deal with these sorts of issues every day. You have a choice, you can listen to the very sensible advice you've been given here... or you can learn it yourself the hard way.

 

[Bronte]

After another weekend of not being allowed to see my children I have decided that it is time to go to court.

She wants me to pay her €250 maintenance per week including still splitting school/christmas/birthdays/medical/dental and that until I pay this amount I am not allowed to see my children.

The solicitor has suggested €150 per week with conditions. In relation to my current partner even if we were to get married it would not make any difference to the maintenance I would have to pay as my partner has no legal responsibility for my children and the maintenance can only be assessed on my personal income and reasonable expenditure, although expenses will be halved in terms of rent/bills etc for the house.

It will be recommended that she attend a rehabilitation clinic appointed by the court during the times that I have the kids and that maintenance paid is directly to rent and other bills. The main reason for this is she has not paid rent in almost 3 months and has not paid for tax/insurance but still drives the car, I can only imagine where the money went.

.

You need to calm down before taking the drastic step of going to court. It's totally wrong of her to deny you access no matter what, and it's most certainly shouldn't be conditional on you paying her more maintenance.

Are you SURE that if you get married that a judge won't look at your new 'joint' income and circumstances, compare it to your children living in rental with a single mother and then decide you can pay more? The law may say one thing but a judge is human !

What's with the rehabilitation clinic, for smoking some pot? If that's all she does that's nothing. Who has decided on this course of action? Sounds to me like someone struggling who is using pot to get her through the week. Like a crutch in a desparate life possibly.

You are also coming across as controlling - you want your money directed a certain way, rather than giving your ex the right to choose what she does with the money.

Don't make things worse by going to war, not unless you're pretty sure of the outcome. Unfortunately for you if she takes against you she will be able to beat the system, the country is full of men who know this.

 

[stephnyc]

@Inserteneo - I hope this gets resolved as quickly and painlessly as possible. No one knows the full situation, but people are trying to help.

For a 2nd opinion, before you head for a costly court date, maybe try http://www.treoir.ie/ or http://www.uspi.ie/ I have no experience of either, but I think you need impartial advice.