Is gold a good investment

Hi George and Chris. I agree that you should not base an investment decision on the basis of historic running dividend yield. Note that I added the very important qualification of judging if the dividend can be maintained. In relation to the point about companies that don't pay dividends, you can project their earnings over time, and allow for the eventual payment of dividends.

You still seem to focus too much on dividends. There are companies that even in the current climate are able to maintain or increase their dividends. At the same time, these companies have seen their share value decrease by by more than 50% in the past 18 months.
As for companies possibly/eventually paying out dividends, again a very risky method to base an investment decision on. You quote Warren Buffett, he has stated many times that while he is in charge of Berkshire Hathaway, they will never pay a penny in dividends. Apple have stated similar, that doesn't make either of these companies, among numorous others, less or more dificult to evaluate for investment.


My core argument in the context of a discussion on gold as an investment was that you must have some objective benchmark against which to determine whether the current price represents good or bad value. The fact that the price of a particular asset class went up by 10% or 20% in the last year, 6 months or whatever is irrelevant to whether it will fall or rise in future. Some of the arguments now being advanced in favour of gold as an investment, on the basis of historic performance, are redolent of those advanced a few years ago in favour of property in Ireland. Yet a review of fundamentals, in the form of comparing the cost of renting a property with the price of buying it, would have demonstrated that Irish property was a very bad buy at that time.

Couldn't agree more, past performance should not be taken as an indicator for future performance, whether your are looking to invest in property, gold, equities or lean hogs for that matter. As for buy to let, you hit the nail right on the head.

Gold may or may not be a good investment at the present time. The problem is that I'm not aware of a benchmark against which to determine whether it is or not.

See Marc's comment on supply and demand. If the world were to be convinced that gold is 'useless' then demand would sink to near zero and so would the price of gold. Whether that will realistically happen is a question for the individual investor.


Bottom line is that you can look at gold as:
1) An investment as part of a diversified portfolio, but acceptiong it's volatility (NB: no one here has advised to invest only in gold)
2) A hedge (See Marc's post which gives an excellent description)
3) An insurance against high/hyper inflation, however likely or not (just like a life insurance policy it only has value in the worst case scenario)
All 3 have their merits and risk.

I'm not a gold bug, but I do own gold and have been adding more in recent months. Some posters on this site are stating that gold is now a bubble waiting to burst because it's constantly being advised as a good investment. While I agree that gold is quite likely in a bubble phase, I believe it is in the very early stages . Drawing comparison to past bubbles like .com and property, gold is getting nowhere near as much attention. When there are daily articles or precious metal supplements in papers, when radio and TV news quote the price of gold and interview metal commodity brokers on each show, and when the investment/business section of the local book shop stock books on 'how to get rich with gold', then you'll know that you are close to bursting point.
 
Very well said Chris and Marc.

Believe gold has gone from being massively undervalued to being slightly undervalued to fairly valued. Will have to reach inflation adjusted high of well over $2,000/oz before it is in early stages of bubble and then likely to rise to over $6,000/oz (gold rose 25 times in the 1970's and the conditions today are far more bullish for gold - 25 X $250 = $6,250/oz)

Then we will well and truly be in a bubble mania phase gold will be featured and discussed on the radio and tv news on daily basis (not every 6 months) and on the front pages of newspapers and financial/business magazines.

Good article in FT yesterday:

Bullion sales hit record in rush to safety
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/359da604-f6d4-11dd-8a1f-0000779fd2ac.html
 
The whole argument on gold as a hedge against hyperinflation is a red herring. If hyperinflation occurs central banks would most likely increase interest rates rapidly to choke out inflation. They did this in the past, with the Fed under Paul Volker increasing interest rates to 20%, which resulted in inflation falling from 14% to 3%. So, as it worked in the past, it is most likely they would try it again. Your best ‘hedge’ against hyperinflation is not gold but a ‘sound money’ man or woman in the ECB. For someone with large precautionary savings (and no investment portfolio) who is worried about hyperinflation a better hedge might be to put, say, 5 - 10% of their savings in a broad developed market equity index tracker or ETF rather than in gold, as you would expect equity prices to rise in line with the inflationary increase in prices, and you would also get dividends.

But if you have an investment portfolio, I’m still not convinced you should buy gold. As Marc pointed out, it doesn’t pay dividends, and, IMHO, it’s not really a commodity, i.e. something in daily demand by industry. Gold, it appears to me, is some sort of a quasi-currency that is not supervised by a central bank.

Marc’s rationale for gold buying is that it is non-correlated, but e.g. so are other asset classes that may also pay dividends. Marc’s post shows the negative correlation of gold with three asset classes (i.e. global developed market equities; global property; and emerging market equities). I would say you could achieve the same hedging with greater upside potential by investing in other asset classes, e.g. commodities, timber, foreign government debt. Here, e.g. is the relative price movement of non-euro denominated short-term government debt vs euro-denominated developed market equity: http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=^STOXX50E&t=2y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=ibts.l

which looks reasonably non-correlated to me. [Note: this is not a recommendation to buy non-euro government debt at this point in time.] You don’t have to have perfect non-correlation; every < 1 correlation lowers portfolio volatility.

I would think that Marc’s suggestion that an investor who holds equities should permanently hedge their position with an allocation to gold requires further scrutiny. .If you do this you are in effect making a bet that gold will always revert to its mean, and I think it would be prudent to see some evidence of this before adding gold to your portfolio. Also, if you rebalance towards gold when it is down you would be diverting dividend income or new investment into gold, i.e. into something that does not pay dividends and for which demand is largely discretionary (i.e. for jewellery). You would be better off rebalancing into a ‘proper’ asset class.
 
Good points PMU.

I presume this is why Buffett was 100% in bonds up until recently (following on from Marcs earlier reasoning as to why one would be selling off equities in 2006/7).
 
Good points PMU.

I presume this is why Buffett was 100% in bonds up until recently (following on from Marcs earlier reasoning as to why one would be selling off equities in 2006/7).

Buffett was 99% in equities, Berkshire Hathaway, and 1% in bonds. The 1% he held in bonds he has reportedly redirected into US non-Berkshire equities.
 
Sorry - PMU but you obviously do not know what hyperinflation is.
I suggest you read up on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation .

In hyperinflation, a countries economic system and currency literally collapses.
The majority of companies go to the wall (except for companies that are politcally connected and or produce and sell necessities - natural resource, energy, food, basic commodities).

Fiat paper money has no instrinsic value whatsoever and every paper currency in the history of man has eventually collapsed leading to hyperinflation.

Thus the argument of equities good v gold bad is simplistic and silly.
Both are essential in a properly diversified portfolio.

Re Volker and the 1970's - that was in stagflation which is an altogether different beast than hyperinflation for a start as per above. Secondly, if central banks drastically increase interest rates, investors will be incentivised to own government bonds and cds. As happened in 1980.

But crucially, gold is correlated with rising interest rates. This was clearly seen in the 1970's - interest rates rose throughout the 1970's as did gold and it was only at the end of the tightening process when interest rates were at near double digit levels that investors and savers sold some of their gold investments and reallocated to government bonds and cds.

Of most importance is the salient fact that the US was the greatest creditor nation the world had ever seen in 1980. Today it is the greatest debtor nation with an insolvent banking and financial system (according to FT's Martin Wolf yesterday).

Moody's are considering downgrading US government debt and the Chinese are getting nervous and openly warning of diversifying into euros, yen and gold.

Diversify !
 
http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/precious-metals-and-gems/whats-the-point-of-gold-14619.aspx

What's the point of gold?

By Adrian Ash Feb 13, 2009

"The twilight of gold appeared to have arrived," wrote Niall Ferguson – now a Harvard professor, then an Oxford scholar – of the metal's 20-year bear market at the end of the last century.
"Gold has a future of course," he added, "but mainly as jewellery." And it's a common enough long-term view, repeated every so often by economists, historians, columnists and analysts.
"The stuff has a historical place in the money market," as one New Zealand advisor put it in a note to her clients in 2003. "But gold's just that – historical." So historical, in fact, it deserves to be scorned – along with human sacrifice, living in mud huts and VHS tapes – as primitive, brutish, uncivilised.

"Was it not I," asked John Maynard Keynes in 1945, "who wrote that 'Gold is a barbarous relic'...?"

Man of the moment once more today, Keynes was hardly first to disdain the metal as money, however – even if he was part of the Bretton Woods' team which replaced it with US dollars. Printed at will, the dollar would prove so much more flexible, more available than tightly-supplied gold. Amid the Great Depression of the late 1920s and '30s, Keynes called for Great Britain and then the rest of the world to stop redeeming its paper notes for gold coins or bullion. The supply of money and credit could then start flowing freely once more, boosting demand for goods and services and sparking an inflation in prices that would make the value of outstanding debts evaporate.

Yet the scheme was nothing new. More than two centuries earlier, John Law – another visionary economist – had proposed and attempted the very same thing.

A world-famous gambler, convicted murderer and exiled Scot, Law gave the world its first modern bubble and bust. His grand system – first proposed in his book, Money & Trade Considered (1705) – sought to revoke state bankruptcy by replacing gold money with arable land, paper notes, stock-market shares, future tax revenues, the Mississippi Delta... anything but more metal.

"It is in the interests of the King and his people to guarantee bank money and to abolish gold specie," wrote Law as he applied his theory to France's very real financial crisis. Giving monetary power to, say, the stock of his Mississippi trading company, would "diminish the value of gold by taking away its usage as money."

But those dumb Frenchmen! Whenever they took profits by selling Mississippi stock as it doubled, trebled and rose ten-fold, they "thought they might turn it into heaps of gold and silver, which they call realising," spat Law.

Couldn't they see?

"The lands of France are worth more than all the gold which still lies hid in the mines of Peru," Law declared. "The stocks [of his Mississippi venture] actually surpassed in value all the gold and silver which will ever be in the kingdom."

Yet still the French crowded out of his stock and into gold as the bubble burst in 1720. Come May, John Law banned the use of monetary metal altogether on pain of fines, imprisonment and even death – stealing a march on US president F.D.Roosevelt by some 213 years.
Make no mistake; Law would have been right to price Mississippi stock far above money...if only his Compagnie de l'Occident had held any real value at all. Instead, it owned a million miles of disease-ridden swamp, plus a sick colony of ex-beggars and thieves lost in Louisiana. Whereas gold offered then just what it offers today: very little of productive value, but a time-honored bolt hole when nothing else pays.

Gold's only value, you see, comes in owning it – whether for adornment, to escape the risk of counter-party default, or as a defence from inflation. Any other class of financial asset, provided it offers a yield, income or growth, should win out over gold. Just so long as it keeps delivering that yield, income or growth. Because gold, a raw lump of metal, will pay nothing and do nothing besides holding its value across the very longest of long terms.

How long is the long term? "It is said that an ounce of gold bought 350 loaves of bread in the time of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, who died in 562 BC," wrote Stephen Harmston – then an economist at Bannock Consulting – for the World Gold Council (WGC), just when Niall Ferguson was condemning gold as mere frippery ten years ago.
"The same ounce of gold," Harmston went on in his study, Gold as a Store of Value, "still buys approximately 350 loaves of bread today." Which seems an odd swap to us, unless you're very hungry indeed. But "across 2,500 years, gold has in other words retained its purchasing power, relative to bread at least."

Crucially for long-term investors – especially for those with 2,500 years to wait – "Gold has had a real rate of return of zero," as Harmston observed. Meaning it doesn't beat or lag inflation or deflation. Not across the very long run, that period in which "we're all dead" as John Maynard Keynes, himself now very dead for six decades, once said.
To get this straight, it bears repeating. Gold is NOT the ultimate inflation hedge, not compared with dividend-paying, growth-dependent stock investments. Not unless you keep your entire savings tied up in Gold Bullion, hedging your very existence against a loss (or gain) in the value of money. And not unless you get to exist for an awfully long time to come as well.

Across the slightly-less long run – say, a mere one-and-a-half centuries, rather than two-and-a-half millennia – the inflation-adjusted value of gold remains well below where it started on average.
The value placed on gold when the Bank of England set the international Gold Standard in motion in 1844 has rarely been seen since. And on the historical it's in fact slipped by 15%, slowly declining before turning decisively lower throughout the 20th century.

Why would the world (the best proxy for which, we guess at BullionVault, is the well-attested British experience) put progressively less value on gold amid the murder and mayhem... bubbles and busts... of the last 100 years? Why did gold lose purchasing power – and then continue to lose value – both during and then for a long while after total war swept Europe, Africa, Asia and the Pacific? Surely such death and destruction should force gold to a premium?

The fact is, however, that the 20th century also brought fresh competitors for investment wealth...competitors rapidly offered to every class of investor as the Second World War receded and then the "Big Bang" of deregulation began under the Thatcher and Reagan administrations.

Yes, it may seem heretical (if not blindingly obvious, depending on where you start), but like charcoal and shire horses, steam trains and gas lamps, the 20th century subjected gold to a sharp loss of relative utility and thus value. Gold's only use comes in its ownership, remember; so its value as a store of wealth necessarily depends on the supply of alternative holdings. And the 20th century brought a flood of competition for that role.
The upshot today, almost a decade after Gordon Brown's infamous gold sales marked not only the high-point of anti-gold sentiment but also the very nadir of its 20-year slump. Free from default risk and inflating supply, gold suddenly looks very attractive to fund managers, investment advisors and private individuals who only a few years ago mocked the idea that metal might be worth owning.

Sure, the time may soon come when gold's one single use is matched and bettered again, beaten by other, more productive investments. But until then – and as gold's current price action suggests – what else will you hold as stock earnings tumble, bonds are over-supplied and threaten default, and the value of money itself is forced ever-deeper into genuine crisis?
This article was written by Adrian Ash, editor of Gold News and head of research at BullionVault.
 
I've been following this thread for a few months, I don't profess to know a lot about financial markets or investments at all, all my assets are in cash in deposit accounts, I've never dabbled in the stock market aside from some company stock options that were quickly sold.

I have fears that hyperinflation may indeed become a reality affecting both the dollar and euro and am considering diversifying into either property or other precious metals. I've been doing a fair bit of research on this particular type of investment and to my simplistic view I see silver as being a more attractive home for my money. Purely because it's price is not just dependent on the fact that in order to sell it, I need to find somebody who thinks it looks pretty. It has industrial uses which would insure that it would maintain 'some' value, in the event of cash becoming worthless.

My main question/worry about gold is what reason do people have for having confidence in it through thick and thin. Other than the argument that it has been used for trade since shep was a pup. It's all dependent on people's opinion's of it. Nobody actually needs it for anything.
 
My main question/worry about gold is what reason do people have for having confidence in it through thick and thin. Other than the argument that it has been used for trade since shep was a pup. It's all dependent on people's opinion's of it. Nobody actually needs it for anything.

I would ask what need have we in paper money? The answer is none. It is perception that gives it value. Paper money is a medium of exchange. A medium of exchange must be efficient and accepted by users.

I think from reading through these posts, three conclusions are strongly evident from many posters;
1) Hyperinflation is becoming a more viable threat
2) Gold has served as an efficient medium of exchange far longer than fiat money
3) Gold rises with the inflationary tide of assets denominated in fiat money

That is why I feel people have confidence in gold through thick and thin.
 
I would ask what need have we in paper money? The answer is none. It is perception that gives it value. Paper money is a medium of exchange. A medium of exchange must be efficient and accepted by users.

I think from reading through these posts, three conclusions are strongly evident from many posters;
1) Hyperinflation is becoming a more viable threat
2) Gold has served as an efficient medium of exchange far longer than fiat money
3) Gold rises with the inflationary tide of assets denominated in fiat money

That is why I feel people have confidence in gold through thick and thin.

You've actually just reinforced my point rather than answered the question. I'm really trying to understand exactly how Gold differs from any other form of currency?

What happens if the doomsday scenarion does arrive? Why are people so confident that gold will be accepted in return for a service or goods?

The point that it has been done and accepted in the past is irrelevant IMO as you could point to this in the case of any form of currency until it collapses. I just don't see any intrinsic value in Gold to prevent it from collapsing also?
 
How is the threat of hyperinflation materiliasing for Ireland? The stimulus package in the US is far greater than Eurozone equivalent, is it not? We are currently experiencing deflation, so how is this suddenly going to be reversed? Why would hyperinflation in the US translate into something similar in EU?
 
Are there any brick and mortor financial institutions in Ireland that sell gold (I'm not interested in storing the gold myself so not a jewelers or something).

I am unsure about buying gold from a website like gold.ie or bullionvault.com, who regulates them? What guarantees do you get?
 
You want to buy Gold but not store it? Buy into a Gold fund of some description that is regulated
 
What happens if the doomsday scenarion does arrive? Why are people so confident that gold will be accepted in return for a service or goods?

The point that it has been done and accepted in the past is irrelevant IMO as you could point to this in the case of any form of currency until it collapses. I just don't see any intrinsic value in Gold to prevent it from collapsing also?

I believe gold won't collapse for a number of reasons. Its acceptance in the past is not irrelevant as this acceptance reinforces its' acceptance into the future. Gold is scarce, durable, and internationally accepted. Counterfeiting is not a problem also. If fiat currencies are to collapse, and if gold was to follow suit, what could we use as a medium of exchange? Truth is there are very few other metals which could be used as an efficient medium of exchange.

If a doomsday scenerio was to occur, and fiat currencies were to collapse, gold, given today's technology, could prove a far more efficient medium of exchange that it did so in the past. Users wouldn't neccessarily have to carry blocks of gold around with them. Credit cards and debit cards denominated in gold ounces could be used to pay for goods and services. Indivisibilty would not be a problem.
 
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You want to buy Gold but not store it? Buy into a Gold fund of some description that is regulated

Where can I buy into a gold fund? As I said I have seen websites like gold.ie and bullionvault, but I would feel more comfortable dealing with a regulated brick and mortor financial institution.
 
but I would feel more comfortable dealing with a regulated brick and mortor financial institution.


If you can find one of these in today's world please let us know!

If your not comfortable with the likes of bullionvault I would recommend buying coins direct and take the chance that they never get lost or stolen... And be willing to pay a substancial premium on their purchase.

I personally am quite happy to buy through bullionvault and know the stuff is in a highly secure vault in London.
 
Errrrm . . . got to love the confidence in “bricks and mortar financial institutions” . . . would Anglo Irish Bank be one of them and aren’t these the same institutions that got us into this mess ? . . . and weren’t these bricks and mortars institutions regulated !?

Think best to own and possess ( ‘possession is 9/10’s of the law’ ;-) ) the bullion in one’s hand but if going to store with a third party best to store it with the ‘regulated’ Western Australian government mint – the Perth Mint has a real AAA sovereign credit rating which is not about to be downgraded and they are in existence since 1899.

Unlike bullionvault.com and digital gold, Gold Investments in Fitzwilliam Square are regulated fee based investment advisors who are EU approved dealers for the Perth Mint.

Does not come much more regulated bricks and mortar than the government Perth Mint –
www.perthmint.com.au

Times' Rees Mogg article is very interesting.
Thanks Whitegrass.
 
Flyfishing, I'm not sure that you're reading the right charts. Anyone who tracked gold down to October levels would be making a serious killing now. Anyone who tracks its possible slip after the momentary touchpoint of 1002 on friday could stand to make a lot more as it ramps up.

Gold having no value? That's so extreme as to be a purposefully provocative remark.
 
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