Gift given 5 years before parent's death. Brother challenging it.

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deranne

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My mother died 4 years ago and my father died last year. Assets straight forward just cash in banks (house was dealt with before they died). Two brothers are executors, one has bad blood with me and the others are all fine. My siblings and I took care of both my parents in every way imaginable and for the amount of care they both needed for many years without putting them into a nursing home was extraordinary. The eldest brother who has bad blood did zilch and I mean zilch to which he would even admit to.
My mother and father gave me a generous valuable asset before they died (5 years ago now) because I took care of the lions share of what could be described as a dysfunctional house for nearly 20 years and all hospital appt, treatments, admin, house management, you name it, I did it while rearing my own kids.
Anyway, when my mother was dying brother 1 was asking the whereabouts of this asset and I told him that it was given to me as a gift and I twice begged him to ask my mother (father had dementia) before she died and he didn't. She did mention this to her solicitor while making the will but had promised me the gift and told him to leave it off the will (did I say the dynamics could be dysfunctional !).
Anyway this brother has bad blood with me that I got this gift. Fast forward, I got texts from stonemason last week looking for payment of works done to the grave and I mentioned to brother 2 who is sound with me, enquiring on how probate was going, and brother 1 heard this after and went mad at him for discussing the probate with me and warned him not to tell me anything. Now I understand from posts on AAM, I am not entitled to ask so I left it at that.
My question is brother 2 has said that the solicitors are transferring the assets to their accounts and they were asked for bank account details but no mention of us. I thought that solicitors transferred the money directly to the beneficiaries (all siblings are equal beneficiaries) and I am hoping brother 1 is not trying to manoeuvre a smaller inheritance for me because of the gift. He has dabbled with this idea in conversation with brother 2 over the years. All other siblings are aware of the asset and are aware that Mum gave it to me, as my mother never did anything in a straight line she never told them so to be fair, they heard it from me. They also know I am rigid straight and I would never take anything that wasn't mine to take so they are fine. Should I be worried? hand on heart, I don't think so but all the same the unknown can make you get paranoid!
 
deranne said:
I thought that solicitors transferred the money directly to the beneficiaries
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Yes, they can do it that way or send out cheques in the case of cash assets.
all siblings are equal beneficiaries
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Do you know that for sure?
Is there any chance that the asset gifted to you was in lieu of any inheritance, for example?
 
The executor(s) have ultimate responsibility for ensuring the wishes/bequests made in the will are carried out. They are also responsible for settling any bills incurred, funeral costs, etc. Gifts outside of the will are none of their concern.
 
If probate has been granted you can get a copy of the documents from the probate office and that give you concrete information.
 
mathepac said:
The executor(s) have ultimate responsibility for ensuring the wishes/bequests made in the will are carried out. They are also responsible for settling any bills incurred, funeral costs, etc. Gifts outside of the will are none of their concern.
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Can a sibling settle the funeral costs and be reimbursed upon completion of probate??
 
Pinoy adventure said:
Can a sibling settle the funeral costs and be reimbursed upon completion of probate??
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Yes.

When someone dies

If you have recently lost someone close to you or know someone who has recently been bereaved, this will guide you through the immediate things that you must do following a death.
www.citizensinformation.ie www.citizensinformation.ie
Funeral costs

In some cases, a funeral may be partially or fully paid for in advance, or the funeral costs are covered by an insurance policy. Otherwise, the person who arranges the funeral must pay the funeral director for the cost of the funeral. This can be repaid from the deceased’s estate (the money and property the person left behind).
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Absolutely certain. When my Mum showed me the will of her own violation, it was clearly stated equal distribution, and this is when she told me about the conversation with the solicitor who asked about the valuable asset and she said 'thats with my daughter (I minded stuff like this for her with full knowledge of family as my parents were not security conscience at all) and it can stay with my daughter. She made it very clear that it was for me as I did carry and manage her and Dads life for 20 years.

Ah maybe I am just being paranoid, and it is a case of wait and see, it should be sorted within next couple of weeks. Thanks for replies.
 
Did you take possession of the valuable asset before your parents died?
 
deranne said:
It didn't belong to me, it was kept at my house with the original invoice in their names so I had it but didn't own it.
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So, it will still remain part of your mother's estate will presumably be a part of your inheritance with an appropriate reduction in the cash proceeds compared to the other siblings to account for it?
 
So your Mum gifted the asset to you, but never said it to anyone and it was never recorded anywhere?

The brother with the grudge will push for it to be included in the Estate and for your share to be reduced accordingly.

And I’m struggling to see how you can fight that to be honest.

What a mess.
 
ClubMan said:
So, it will still remain part of your mother's estate will presumably be a part of your inheritance with an appropriate reduction in the cash proceeds compared to the other siblings to account for it?
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Sorry, I read it wrong, when I brought to my house for safekeeping, I didn't own it and kept the invoice with it to be sure my parents were owners. When they made the will (it was changed due to the sudden death of a sibling) she was showing me the will and that is when she said she was giving it to me. So it was in my possession and verbally she told me to keep it.
Gordon, it sure has the possibility of being a mess.
 
If the item was given to you by your parent(s) then its yours.

The 'invoice' you refer to was made out to your parents when they purchased it?

Unless its a car or house / apartment, there is no provision to put it in your name.

If it is a valuable item, I'm sure you will have it listed under your house insurance and that can be used to establish your ownership for x number of years.

Get a copy of the will from the probate office; without it you are in the dark.
 
deranne said:
My mother and father gave me a generous valuable asset before they died
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I understand you don't want to be specific online but I'm a bit stumped. If it's small enough to be stored in a safe than I assume jewellery or the like. It's also hard to know how big it is in the scheme of the estate.

If this is a €10k item in the context of a €100k estate that's one thing.

If it's a €2k item in the scheme of a €500k estate I am not sure any dispute is worth the time, hassle, or potential legal fees.

In % terms, how big is this "valuable asset" relative to the estate?
 
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I remember my own sister took a lot of items from our elderly parent's house before they died. We were all given the story that these items were gifted to her over the years. Jewellery items, furniture, old books etc. The same story that she was given these because of all the work she did for them over the years. Even brought her own children in to the house to choose the items that they wanted before the actual beneficiaries knew that this was going on. We never found out where our mother's engagement ring went.

Why was the invoice from the stonemason sent to you. If you did everything for your parents, why were you not made the executor?
 
If you went to sell this item, and if it is very valuable can you prove ownership? If it is worth €5K I doubt if people would look for proof of ownership, but if it is €50k they probably would.

It sounds like your parents had it on a previous will but not on their last will so it would indicate it was no longer part of their estate.

Until the estate is distributed you won’t be able to find out if the executors did as the will said, take the cash and divide it equally. Until then worry is futile but if they were to include the valuable item in the estate I would expect you would hear about it before the estate was dispersed. A prudent executor may want it valued, stored with full insurance or sold to convert it to cash so it can be distributed as part of the estate if they are of the view you were only holding it in safekeeping for your parents.
 
I
NoRegretsCoyote said:
I understand you don't want to be specific online but I'm a bit stumped. If it's small enough to be stored in a safe than I assume jewellery or the like. It's also hard to know how big it is in the scheme of the estate.

If this is a €10k item in the context of a €100k estate that's one thing.

If it's a €2k item in the scheme of a €500k estate I am not sure any dispute is worth the time, hassle, or potential legal fees.

In % terms, how big is this "valuable asset" relative to the estate?
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Good question, the estate would be in total 400k (including house sale which was transferred in our names while parents were alive and sold as Dad was coming to live with me, that is a whole other story and we all got our fair share of house sale) then cash assets approx 100k between 5. Yes the item is something like what you describe.

Odea said:
I remember my own sister took a lot of items from our elderly parent's house before they died. We were all given the story that these items were gifted to her over the years. Jewellery items, furniture, old books etc. The same story that she was given these because of all the work she did for them over the years. Even brought her own children in to the house to choose the items that they wanted before the actual beneficiaries knew that this was going on. We never found out where our mother's engagement ring went.

Why was the invoice from the stonemason sent to you. If you did everything for your parents, why were you not made the executor?
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Ok, I didn't fleece the house ever. It was me that tidied up the house and dispersed items according to parents wishes including my mothers wedding ring to brother 1 -daughter, an antique bureau that I got fixed up with a refurbished many years before but my sister wanted it so she got it. My two brothers got all the furniture as they are buying a house themselves. I took 2 of her sweaters and the family photos. My mother had cancer for years and I was up and down to the nearest city for appointments, she was always trying to throw me petrol money and I never took it for 7 years until the last year of her life because hubby and I lost our business. And just to put into context, brother 1 lives 30 mins away and hadn't take my parents to his house in 20 years except for 1 baptism, 1 communion and 1 confirmation. He visited once every 6 or so weeks for an hour and never once took them out or away for a day. So I have sympathy for your sister if she did in fact look after your parents however I don't condone fleecing a house without all the family there and the clue is in 'before your parents died', maybe they wanted her to have it.

Clamball said:
If you went to sell this item, and if it is very valuable can you prove ownership? If it is worth €5K I doubt if people would look for proof of ownership, but if it is €50k they probably would.

It sounds like your parents had it on a previous will but not on their last will so it would indicate it was no longer part of their estate.

Until the estate is distributed you won’t be able to find out if the executors did as the will said, take the cash and divide it equally. Until then worry is futile but if they were to include the valuable item in the estate I would expect you would hear about it before the estate was dispersed. A prudent executor may want it valued, stored with full insurance or sold to convert it to cash so it can be distributed as part of the estate if they are of the view you were only holding it in safekeeping for your parents.
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No it was not in original will. She purchased it between wills. It is worth 10k and no I don't think I can prove ownership if it came to selling the item.

My mother (who made the decisions in the house) was a bit old fashioned that way and made brother 1 and 2 executors, she always said this out in the open to everyone (we're not a delicate family and are quite open about stuff like this) She always said her firstborn granddaughter should have her wedding ring , fair enough even though I know there is no sentimental part on gd as she wasn't really close with Mum - not her fault but brother 1 wasn't that kind of close with us. When Mum died, I removed her wedding ring and an hour later gave it to gd.

Within a week of Mum dying he was calling me a 'grabber' behind my back and my siblings defended me. To say that this was a bolt out of the blue is an understatement and a massive shock that he would even think and behave like that. In his early 20's he was really good and kind to my mother when her and Dad hadn't a bean, his years of disconnect still didn't give us any indication that he had turned this nasty at all so I trusted her decision as did the rest of us.

Now to add another angle, my mother died 4 months before hubby and I lost our business (we didn't tell her this was on the cards so no, it is not part of the reason she gave me the gift), brother 1 knew this. We were facing a huge financial burden and I was dealing with small fry of utility companies trying to sort out getting out of contracts. Anyway I downloaded an app on my phone that recorded phonecalls to try to catch a particular broadband company taking the proverbial. Deleted it within a few weeks as it was a pain.
2 years after Mum died, I was tidying up files on phone and came across these audio recordings, went through them and deleted them to clear up space. And then I came across this one call - brother 1 rings me 5 months before Mum died, told me he had visited her in the hospital, she told him the cancer had spread to her lungs. He moved onto chatting about getting her affairs in order. First of all I was stunned that Mum didn't mention to me about the cancer spreading as she always told everything to me but something clicked with her to spare me this. He asked about accounts and he was of the impression that she had multiple accounts yadda yadda yadda and I explained that she has A,B and C and that no, there is no big surprises and its all in order etc. He then asks about said item and I said well she has given that to me. I stressed while she is alive please go and ask her and he was all 'ah no fair enough, thats between you and her etc'. I impressed on him to really go and talk to her about it. He didn't but I have a recording where I am open about gift and happy for him to check with Mum.

The week she was dying, he had the same conversation and again about her affairs - asked about the item and again I begged him to ask her about it so that she could clarify she gave it to me. I also begged my mother to tell him as I wanted my name to be in the clear and as typical of a slightly dysfunctional family, she didn't.

I have the recording.
Lastly, worry is futile and tbh if he did pull a stunt, I am going to let it go, it would cost to much to fix. If I'm honest, yes I would be annoyed that I lose out financially but the biggest annoyance is that he has taken my good character.
 
So the estate being dealt with by probate is €100k cash and, arguably, the asset worth €10k that is in your possession although perhaps not ownership?

The estate is to be divided equally between 5.
So each sibling is in line to receive €20k - €22k?
If the asset that you hold is considered part of the estate and worth €10k, then maybe you'll get €12k in cash with the asset in lieu of the other €10k.
Or, if it's not considered part of the estate then you'll all get €20k each.

This is all assuming that the will actually mandates an even split between all siblings.
But if you haven't seen the will to verify then it could have other instructions.
And, as you've already said, your mother wasn't always completely open and transparent with you.

Unless you are in severely tight financial circumstances, I doubt that it's worth fighting over those amounts.
And, even if you are, it might still not be worth the time, effort, stress etc.

I can't really comment on all the other family dynamic/emotional stuff.
 
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ClubMan said:
Unless you are in severely tight financial circumstances, I doubt that it's worth fighting over those amounts.
And, even if you are, it might still not be worth the time, effort, stress etc.
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I agree.

Best case you are €10k better off. Worst case legal fees eat up even more than €10k.

I really don't think fighting this is worth the risk. I can't follow the thread of the family dynamics but in your shoes I wouldn't add more strife and it is probably better to preserve the good relationship with the siblings you do get on with.
 
Definitely not put into the will but yes, ownership would be difficult and a waste of actual money to prove, the emotional stuff wasn't meant to be there but it was to show that he had ample time to find out and encouraged by me but yes, it was really up to Mum to tell him and not have this mess.
 
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