EU reaches agreement on ‘landmark’ crypto rules

I hope you are right my dear @letitroll. IANACL* but reading the Irish Revenue guidance it is peppered with the phrase "usually" and it seems to me to adopt a fairly common sense approach to these matters. I can't see bitcoin ever being a parallel legal tender in the US but as to getting around bitcoin purchases of goods and services being subject to trivial CGT calcs I feel The Donald could find a way if the Russians would let him. But I agree the Investopedia quote supports your argument though it does not step into the murky depths of constitutional law.

*I Am Not A Constitutional Lawyer
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
I can't see bitcoin ever being a parallel legal tender in the US but as to getting around bitcoin purchases of goods and services being subject to trivial CGT calcs I feel The Donald could find a way
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Nobody has ever suggested BTC needing to be recognized as legal tender in the US!
 
tecate said:
Nobody has ever suggested BTC needing to be recognized as legal tender in the US!
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Sound of goal posts moving

Regardless - me @letitroll is suggesting and in fact has proved because it so elementarily obvious that a challenger alternative payment system to visa/mastercard/cash is one that generates a litany of capital gains/losses and pushes onto its user end of year tax filings, is a payments system with a snowballs chance in hell of succeding.

As I've said - currency/payments use case theory for BTC is DEAD...and the community killed it for money - next narrative please @tecate for me to dismantle....I dont think there are any left ...right...just general institutional/portfolio adoption leading to a price increase right?
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
reading the Irish Revenue guidance it is peppered with the phrase "usually" and it seems to me to adopt a fairly common sense approach to these matters.
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The usually and common sense approach of course is for people, as your advisor pointed out, who find themselves with foreign currency as a result of holiday or a trip to the North.

This is understandable - the currency payment dream which is based on the idea that somehow payments funded in btc would be treated as anythigng other than capital transaction.

As I've said ad nasuem - an alternative payments system that aspires to scale to ubiquity - that litters its user with a avalanche of capital gains/losses and obligation to report at the end of the year is payments system doomed to failure

BTC/L2 is payments system doomed to failure - this idea exists only now to attempt to pump the coin.

BTC has ended up on the STOCK market - you might as well propose to me that I can use liquidate my Apple stock to pay for milk down the shops. Nobody is doing it.....and certianly nobody is doing at scale such that one could hold on to the use case expansion pump that still goes on for BTC.

For reference even our own Irish statue book goes to great lengths to highlight the singularity and special position of a single currency recognized by the irish state.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1927/act/32/enacted/en/print#sec8 -
10.—Every contract, sale, payment, bill, note, instrument, and security for money, and every transaction, dealing, matter, and thing whatever relating to money or involving the payment or the liability to pay any money which is made, executed, entered into, done, or had on or after the day appointed under this Act for the commencement of the issue of legal tender notes shall be made, executed, entered into, done and had according to coins or notes which are for the time being legal tender under the Coinage Act, 1926 (No. 14 of 1926) or this Act and not otherwise, unless the same be made, executed, entered into, done or had according to the currency of some state or country other than Saorstát Eireann.
 
letitroll said:
Sound of goal posts moving
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What on earth are you talking about? I responded directly to something that arose in the Duke's last post - to underscore that in 7 years of discussion of the topic here, nobody has ever suggested that BTC would sit alongside the USD as legal tender in the US! In smaller nations, sure. In the US, never. The purpose otherwise to underscore that the only one making a song and dance about that has been you.

letitroll said:
me @letitroll is suggesting and in fact has proved because it so elementarily obvious that a challenger alternative payment system to visa/mastercard/cash is one that generates a litany of capital gains/losses and pushes onto its user end of year tax filings, is a payments system with a snowballs chance in hell of succeding.
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No. What you're doing is disregarding two solutions that have been provided to the shortcoming that was originally identified and going on some crusade about legal tender. The two solutions?
1. As provided by Strike - as described in post no. 148. To make life even easier, I provided the UK Payments Association's review of it. You've wished it away - but sorry, the solution works just fine!
2. Legislative change re. the application of capital gains tax where BTC is concerned.

Such a thing doesn't require an amendment to the U.S. constitution! :oops:

letitroll said:
As I've said - currency/payments use case theory for BTC is DEAD..
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lol. I'm glad you reached the conclusion you were hoping for but if it's all the same to you, I won't be buying what you're selling here. As I've explained many times, the greater use case for bitcoin has always been and will always be found in the developing world. That's something that you're never willing to factor in of course but that's totally up to yourself. But we can focus on the US relative to lightning payments and you've still got that wrong.

Now someone mentioned moving goalposts...

Can you explain, if a spot ETF is going to be such a detrimental risk to bitcoin - then how does it realize that risk without $$$ pouring in to said ETF? If $$ pours into such an ETF, isn't that a new market entirely? Won't that have a gentle upward pressure on unit price? Aren't those folks who've never acquired a satoshi ever before?

I know I've asked a few times but you probably didn't notice.
 
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tecate said:
If $$ pours into such an ETF, isn't that a new market entirely? Won't that have a gentle upward pressure on unit price?
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Again a fundamental flaw in your logic..which is I think based on your singular focus & zealot like myoptia on bitcoin as the 'one true coin'...BTC's commodification and capital good classification and approval inside an ETF has created the playbook.........the playbook for clones, copies and imitators.

"Gentle upward pressure on unit price" :) ...why cause people have no other alternative than to buy btc to scratch their monetary debasement itch ...I know that's the dream @tecate ...number go up bro...only 21 million coins bro....get your hands on one now bro...but trust me now that the playbook is set..........what btc is much more likely to experience is gentle downward pressure on its unit price....as other cryptographically derived tokens are either created, launched and placed with existing ones inside ETF's......different variations on the same meme.......government money is a zero/number go up/antidote to chaos.

The problem you need to contend with @tecate is that there isnt a 21 million coin limit......creating some short squeeze on price..thats little picture thinking....big picture thinking is there is no limit to the number of tokens with a monetary debasement story that can be created, launched and now placed in a ETF and sold to the public.

Bitcoins, bluecoins, redcoins, tecatecoins, dogecoins.........crypto has its own printing press in the basement.......and when there's money to be made....that crypto printer runs faster than any fiat printer.

Look forward to returning at the next big BTC/crypto milestone......but like I said......the btc promote 'story' looks completely out of juice to me....the positive catalyst/milestones & tent pole moments are all in the past...scary for a current holder if they reflect on that thought for a while.....and no bueno for a token who's price is only determined by what the next fellow will pay :eek:
 
letitroll said:
Again a fundamental flaw in your logic..which is I think based on your singular focus & zealot like myoptia on bitcoin as the 'one true coin'...BTC's commodification and capital good classification and approval inside an ETF has created the playbook.........the playbook for clones, copies and imitators.
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What 'clones, copies and imitators'? If you're suggesting that anyone can spin up a bitcoin clone, have at it. Honestly, you're a little late to the discussion if you're only coming up with that now. A better quality critic wouldn't even go there anymore.

letitroll said:
"Gentle upward pressure on unit price" :) ...why cause people have no other alternative than to buy btc to scratch their monetary debasement itch
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Because you made the big phat claim a few days ago that bitcoin was done with a suggestion from you that its now in the ownership of Wall St./the feds due to the approval of spot bitcoin ETFs in the U.S. How precisely do they gain that ownership unless significant $ comes into those funds? I've asked you seven times now. You ignored the question until now - and yet, you still don't answer the question with the above. Whenever you're ready. ;)

letitroll said:
number go up bro...only 21 million coins bro....get your hands on one now bro
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You can be as disrespectful as you want with this condescending nonsense. It's very easy to see why you disappeared for six months having made a big phat claim here previously and couldn't man up and acknowledge your error.
letitroll said:
big picture thinking is there is no limit to the number of tokens with a monetary debasement story that can be created, launched and now placed in a ETF and sold to the public.
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Let me help you with a more honest attempt at the claim that you're trying to make. You're saying that the conventional financial system is corrupt, that Wall St. over sells product it doesn't have. That the gold market is a classic example of exactly that where actual gold sells as a premium to paper gold. You present this like you have some sort of special insight when this is the worst kept secret around. This item has been widely discussed in bitcoin/crypto circles relative to ETF approval - for years already.

From the very outset, I suggested that Wall St. was going to re-hypothecate. However, real time settlement is going to really screw them up. They're going to get caught up in a short squeeze of epic proportions. They don't have the end of business day to sweep away the grift as they have with other assets.

letitroll said:
Bitcoins, bluecoins, redcoins, tecatecoins, dogecoins.........crypto has its own printing press in the basement.......and when there's money to be made....that crypto printer runs faster than any fiat printer.
Click to expand...

So what? These discussions have largely centered around Bitcoin - not crypto. Altcoins have not stopped the progression of bitcoin in any way, shape or form.

letitroll said:
Look forward to returning at the next big BTC/crypto milestone......but like I said......the btc promote 'story' looks completely out of juice to me....the positive catalyst/milestones & tent pole moments are all in the past...scary for a current holder if they reflect on that thought for a while.....and no bueno for a token who's price is only determined by what the next fellow will pay :eek:
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Blinded by your own BS in dragging out this tired old argument. You talked about dreams. By your own admission, you said that you want anyone who may have purchased bitcoin to have their asses handed to them. I'm neither fazed nor bothered by that. The reason I raise it is because it's clouding your judgement - in desperately grasping at any old thing you can to fit your narrative.
 
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tecate said:
narrative
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The only narrative test that matters - is the price of BTC as we agreed in the past.....and before i disappear again to return at another 'big' moment....I humbly remind you that my narrative remains the clear and overwhelming winner versus yours.

BTC remains c.two years after our first discussions & bet on the subject some ~45%, in real terms, off it's all time high price.

This is the most important thing.

Slan go foill
 
letitroll said:
The only narrative test that matters - is the price of BTC as we agreed in the past.....and before i disappear again to return at another 'big' moment....I humbly remind you that my narrative remains the clear and overwhelming winner versus yours.
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Are we implementing drug testing as part of our wager? Never dawned on me but based on that statement we certainly should!

letitroll said:
BTC remains c.two years after our first discussions & bet on the subject some ~45%, in real terms, off it's all time high price.
This is the most important thing.
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Here we have history repeating itself. Ask the Duke about the dangers of focusing in on frothy pico tops and viewing any point below that as bitcoin doing bad!
 
Update on the Duke's probability calls relative to bitcoin:

$20K - 50% probability of bitcoin never reaching this price ever again - Unlocked.
$30K - 75% probability of bitcoin never reaching this price ever again - Unlocked.
$50K - 95% probability of bitcoin never reaching this price ever again - Unlocked.
 
Now 49,952.
Of course I meant close of business US time. So I still have a chance.
Anyway, Tiochaidh ár lá, though I guess we will see a United Ireland before the equally inevitable btc=0 occurs.
 
$63k bitcoin lads........

Congrats to all fellow bitcoin holders.

Edit: don't forget to take some profits
 
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