Blackrock1
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To be fair I don't believe the bmws are as troublesome as the rr!I have an X5 hybrid. Worst of both worlds. Thread title should be "PHEV - Ridiculous product"
Electric Cars - a ridiculous product
- Thread starter Gordon Gekko
- Start date
I've had all these issues with ICE cars. Pumps don't work without electricity. I've had an ICE car get a flat battery in the airport car park, and I've stayed at an Air BnB 50 miles from the nearest filling station. There are long journeys where finding petrol or diesel requires planning.
No issue per se, but its a fairly pointless vehicle. Its raison d'etre is a tax swizz as far as I can make out. My car is an ex-lease UK import. It was used to get low road tax and congestion charges in the UK. It was a high millage car so by the time we got it, I can say that it would never have been plugged in! No battery degradation, right! Lol,
We're a one car family, in the commuter belt. Train to commute so low millage drivers. Family in Dublin (100km round trip, say once a week) and West Cork (350km one way, four times a year).
For the car, so obviously two drive trains. Have none of the maintenance benefits of an electric. Even slightly worse off in this regard as the kerb weight is higher, so more wear on the tyres, engine strain (2l petrol turbo vs. 3L diesel). No major issues in three years of ownership - have had to replace the rear suspension struts last year but that's where all the weight is (7 year old car).
Most of our driving is local so we can do everything mostly on full electric. Electric range is 20/25km realistically. But it means we have to plug in all the time, due to small battery (wouldn't have that with a BEV - neighbour might plug in once a week or so). I assume there is battery degradation here as we are going 0-100% constantly. A larger battery would allow better management i.e. staying within the operating range 20-80% most of the time. But it doesn't matter as the range is so small anyway.
Have none of the cheaper electrical cost benefits. Battery is so small, the benefit of cheap charging is mitigated. Have a smallie so not worth switching to a day/night rate, might be different with EV but we have small mileage anyway. Car is heavier so efficiency is poor. Ill have to look up my stats but when I worked it out previously the cost for 100km electric vs. petrol is roughly the same (combined performance is 7L/100km but with 70% electric id say). That falls off the cliff in the round trip to Cork. I'm just towing a ton of battery for nothing. And zero point in public charging so generally don't bother. The other thing is, now that the petrol is E10, its more corrosive so its just sitting in the tank, so I never really fill up anymore (have to plan more trips to the garage!).
Boot space is smaller vs. Diesel. All the batteries are in the boot. Space is not an issue for us, unless were heading to Cork.
Handling is grand but the weight is noticeable. The model X is far superior as the weight is more evenly spread around, better overall experience.
Looking back, we bought the car with 'best of both worlds' mindset, foolish in hindsight. Knew the BEV would be grand, didnt pull the trigger. For example, I have a service coming up which I'm avoiding. Car will be gone for three days. EV service is a software update and washer fluid, half a day. You live you learn.
Main downside for us is not having the Dublin round trip covered. If we had that, then 90+% of our driving would be electric with all the benefits. The family in Cork have one EV (etron 320km range), they stop in Cashel for half an hour, and crack on. Its not a thing. Other than the cost, to be fair. The fast charging might be more expensive than a tank of fuel. They do it 4 times a year so to have all the benefits of electric the rest of the time, you just suck it up. They go to Connemara in the summer, same thing.
The newer hybrid has a larger range c. 70km, which would suit us, but what's the point?
Money wise, Is it cheaper to run, no. Is it cheaper to maintain, no. Did I get cheaper tolls and road tax, yes. Road tax is 10% of what the 2L Astra was but the toll incentive is gone now. A grand cheaper to run a more polluting car, that's it. They are a tax swizz.
And even though I don't have range anxiety, I have timing chain anxiety!
Wandering_Dazed
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Re. Power cuts depending on the BEV and kit you can actually power your house for several days if needed.
How electric cars can power your home and save you money
New technology means you can use electric cars to directly power your home or even send power to the grid
A lot of BEV issues are due to 12v battery drain overtime not the main battery. Software updates address this.
Hybrids are the worst of both worlds, under powered engines pulling a heavy battery pack.
I still have an ICE car as waiting for the BEV market to settle but my next car will be a BEV.
Howth Head
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This debate reminds me a bit of the video format wars of the 1980s. Some of you will recall there were two (three actually) competing formats: VHS, Betamax and the lesser known Philips 2000 (or something like that.) The first two were on an equal footing for a while - I remember video stores stocking movies in both formats in equal ratios. Then, for some unknown reason VHS powered ahead, despite the Sony Betamax format being objectively superior in several respects. In the end it didn't matter - VHS became the only format in town until DVD arrived on the scene.
When it comes to EVs it doesn't really matter whether they're better, more efficient or cheaper to run. There've been so many negative articles and reports in recent months about declining sales, rapid depreciation and underperforming range promises that the game is up. Most buyers are running away from them (41% drop during March alone, according the Society of the Irish Motor Industry.) They're damaged goods and there's no coming back from those catastrophic sales figures. Production will likely wind down until/unless there's a vast improvement in the technology - or a superior technology emerges.
(Anyone want to buy a Sony SACD player?!)
When it comes to EVs it doesn't really matter whether they're better, more efficient or cheaper to run. There've been so many negative articles and reports in recent months about declining sales, rapid depreciation and underperforming range promises that the game is up. Most buyers are running away from them (41% drop during March alone, according the Society of the Irish Motor Industry.) They're damaged goods and there's no coming back from those catastrophic sales figures. Production will likely wind down until/unless there's a vast improvement in the technology - or a superior technology emerges.
(Anyone want to buy a Sony SACD player?!)
Wandering_Dazed
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The reason that VHS won out is quite simple. Betamax had the superior technology but Sony didn't open the license for it same as with the Mini Disc. I had both and they became obsolete. JVC opened up the VHS standard to others attracted more hardware suppliers and it's better recording time eclipsed Betamax. Sony made a huge mistake in it's approach.
Rubbish, do some informed research, if anything the current reset and competition will mean BEVs become more affordable. Yes current owners suffer but as said elsewhere if what you own suits your usage no need to trade up. If anything we need to break the PCP 3 year cycle of vehicles being disposable items to just trade in every 3 years.
For those of us who don't buy brand new cars (that all depreciate instantly) and don't care what the Jones's think the second hand BEV market is becoming more interesting.
To counter your VHS analogy, the ICE v BEV arguments remind me when of the iPhone v Blackberry debate. I had several BBs and loved the real keyboard....we know how that went.
BEV technology is constantly improving, and VWs software was very problematic initially. However if battery technology continues to develop the way it is, IF solid state battery technology becomes a thing then ICE could well be the next Blackberry/Betamax.
Early adopters will be hurt but that has always been the story tech wise.
Gordon Gekko
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How on earth is EV vs ICE vehicle in any way similar to iPhone vs Blackberry.
If anything, the ICE vehicle is closer to the iPhone in that analogy, given how limited EVs are.
I’d venture that a lot of the defensiveness around EVs stems from buyer’s regret and the realisation that they’ve bought the BetaMax or MiniDisc of our time. Exhibit A, collapsing sales and collapsing values.
It's a different story if you live in a rural area, if you get a power cut in a storm, that's a day off work
Wandering_Dazed
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Did you read my post? How on earth is EV vs ICE in anyway similar to VHS v Betamax? My point was that technology changes rapidly, we've reached the end of the ICE cycle and squeezed as much as we can from that format. Whether EV carries us forward or another format who knows. But I'm sure you can see every day how many more EV's are on the road.
IMHO, ICE is closer to the iPhone versus MSDOS. I recognise you are entrenched in your viewpoint which I respect but you are also not open to a sensible debate.
No defensiveness from my side, I'm a self confessed petrol head. Owned Alfa's and all the punishment that goes with that!
I have changed timing belts, head gaskets, radiators, crankshaft sensors etc on my cars myself over the years. My Dad bemoans ECUs in modern cars as you cannot tweak carburettors. Yet I'm open to the new technology after having to pay 1k to decarb my diesel because it just isn't suited to low mileage/short runs. Which I'm sure a lot of people have experienced similar, dpfs etc.
Gordon Gekko
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Electric vehicle sales have collapsed in 2024. Nationally they fell by 14.1% during the first quarter of 2024 and sales declined by 41% in March alone! That’s against a backdrop of car sales up by 8% during the first quarter.
When you look at the data globally, it’s pretty clear that once subsidies are taken away, people pivot back towards ICE vehicles. Hardly indicative of the superiority of EVs. In fact, quite the opposite, it’s indicative of hype and an inferior product that, with a fair playing field, a minority would choose.
Wandering_Dazed
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And you hauled me up over my IPhone analogy in response to another poster?
Honestly and no disrespect Mr. Gekko I have appreciated your informed posts on AMA over the years but IMHO you are being inflammatory and not open to serious discussion on this topic.
This thread is no longer constructive (dare I say has never been) I'm out.
Maybe a constructive path forward would be to have a BEV thread with Pros and Cons for individuals to decide what works for them.
losttheplot
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Same with petrol and diesel, fuel pumps need electricity. So if a car (EV or ICE) is low on stored fuel and there's a power cut, you're stuck.
losttheplot
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Maybe iPhone vs Nokia is a better analogy. Remember the Nokia that would last forever on a single charge, no need to look for a phone charger when out and about., ompared to the silly iPhone that needed to be charged daily and cost a ridiculous amount. iPhone was fine if there were no power cuts and you didn't need to make a call for longer than 24 hours.
But if you wanted a phone that didn't require planning to use it, the Nokia 3310 was the one.
Hello,
Just a quick observation -
Those who have been defending EVs, with related discussion on range anxiety, and stopping to charge their EVs, are not only playing down the time lost, each time they need to pull in to get some power, but they are also conveniently disregarding the cost of all of the coffees and sandwiches that the are buying, while having to kill time, waiting for their EV to charge ! I'd be fairly certain that most of that expenditure wouldn't be incurred by ICE drivers, who don't need to kill time refueling.
.. And that's before we even mention the single use coffee cups, part plastic wrapping on their sandwiches etc. and the impact that's all having on the environment.
Just a quick observation -
Those who have been defending EVs, with related discussion on range anxiety, and stopping to charge their EVs, are not only playing down the time lost, each time they need to pull in to get some power, but they are also conveniently disregarding the cost of all of the coffees and sandwiches that the are buying, while having to kill time, waiting for their EV to charge ! I'd be fairly certain that most of that expenditure wouldn't be incurred by ICE drivers, who don't need to kill time refueling.
.. And that's before we even mention the single use coffee cups, part plastic wrapping on their sandwiches etc. and the impact that's all having on the environment.
losttheplot
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Because the recharging is for long journeys (300k plus) that would have a stop planned anyway. As someone said earlier, the range is now determined by the bladder, not the car. There's no requirement to buy coffee. Some people buy chocolate when paying for diesel.
Fair point, same boat myself.
As I have said loving the drive and power.
Don't mind not having the smell of diesel on my hands once a week either are a fill up.
Curious to see what is coming start of 25, some interesting new models.
Ah the ignorance again
My home draws 400 watts normal mode, no oven hairdryer etc on.
In a power cut my 64kwh car could power my 400w normal needs including fridge for a week even with losses.
All LED lights on in the house 2 tv's and leave the high power gadgets until power is back on
Don't let facts get in the way of your arguments though.
Blackrock1
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the only reason everyone is in diesels is because of subsidies in the past, i still remember a bmw 520d going from being a 60k+ car to low 40s with the VRT changes.
Blackrock1
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in 4 years of owning an EV id say i have publicly charged less than a dozen times, an ICE driver will have spent a lot more time in services stations that i will have, spending like caligula on coffees and sandwiches
Gordon Gekko
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The collapse in EV sales is telling us that people don’t want them unless they’re subsidised.
Why is that? Might it be because they’re an inferior and less convenient product?
Why is that? Might it be because they’re an inferior and less convenient product?