Cut the dole to cut higher tax rates

[orka]

There has been a significant jump from the top 20% who pay too much to the bottom 92% who dont pay enough.

The 92% was your calculation from my off-the-cuff example of one change that could be made (and, as an aside, I would see any such change as one of several changes) - a 6% PRSI rate with a 75K cap. And you are now taking that as THE accepted definition of 'don't pay enough'? You are very difficult to debate sensibly with.

 

[Purple]

The 92% was your calculation from my off-the-cuff example of one change that could be made (and, as an aside, I would see any such change as one of several changes) - a 6% PRSI rate with a 75K cap. And you are now taking that as THE accepted definition of 'don't pay enough'? You are very difficult to debate sensibly with.

What he said.

 

[Firefly]

80% of the increases in spending in the State sector want on wages.

Eddie Hobbs was on the Claire Byrne show last night. I don't particularly like Eddie but he came out with something....the amount of income tax levied on public sector staff more or less covers the cost of public sector pensions! That means the entire net pay for public sector workers comes from the private sector.

If I get bad food and/or bad service in a fast food restaurant I don't think to myself, while sitting on the loo, give them all pay rises, that'll sort things out!

I know! Wouldn't it be nice to shop elsewhere if the service is either bad or expensive?

 

[Purple]

Cut the dole where do you think the savings would go, high taxpayers are on the best wages in the world public and private this is driving up the cost of most things in Ireland, the only way around this is to use the tax system you may not like it but this is how it is going to be,Irelands high wages are driving up the cost on people on the dole and people on low income, Sort this first THEN we can look at dole

The full stop button on your keyboard is broken.
Upon what do you base your assertion that high tax payers in Ireland are on the best wages in the world?
Upon what do you base your assertion that the wages of that small group of people is "driving up the cost of most things in Ireland"?
Your opinions don't seem to be based on anything but emotion.

 

[Sarenco]

It seems odd that the self-employed start paying PRSI at a rate of 4 per cent once they reach an earnings threshold of €5,000, compared with a threshold of €18,304 for PAYE employees, when you consider that they receive less benefits for their contributions.

 

[TheBigShort]

So some 92% of income earners will be hit by increased taxes, while the top 8% or so will get a tax cut?

Yes

You then went on to assume that I took issue with this comment. But when I explained that I didnt take issue with it (just pointing out the obvious contradictions from the position of how high earners are overtaxed to increasing taxes on them) now you take issue with me for not taking issue with you!
And you claim im being difficult!!

Perhaps you could avoid anymore off-the cuff remarks and give some concrete proposals.
I like the idea of applying the 1% USC rate on all income. Also I do think there is scope to increase effective rates of corporation tax. I also think that wages increases in public and private sectors will drive demand, in turn, increasing income tax take, increasing VAT take, increasing employment, in turn reducing the welfare bill.
All of these factors will facilitate a re-adjustment of the income tax system, reducing the burden on higher earners without unduly penalising low-income earners or cutting welfare rates. Simultaneously, low-income earners will contribute a greater % portion of the income tax take.
Unless you have better ideas (no more off the cuff nonsense please) then I will leave it at that.

 

[Purple]

It seems odd that the self-employed start paying PRSI at a rate of 4 per cent once they reach an earnings threshold of €5,000, compared with a threshold of €18,304 for PAYE employees, when you consider that they receive less benefits for their contributions.

Self employed are "Wurkers". They might actually employ a few people themselves and that makes them employers. Employers are evil and anything they have is gained on the backs of "wurking people". Therefore they should be taxed to the hilt. It doesn't matter what they actually earn or how they earn it.

Don't you know anything?

 

[Purple]

You then went on to assume that I took issue with this comment. But when I explained that I didnt take issue with it (just pointing out the obvious contradictions from the position of how high earners are overtaxed to increasing taxes on them) now you take issue with me for not taking issue with you!

And you claim im being difficult!!

You were incorrect in that and it was pointed out to you. You are now ignoring that clarification. That’s how you are being difficult.

Perhaps you could avoid anymore off-the cuff remarks and give some concrete proposals.

Sure, go back to what we had 15-20 years ago or copy the Swedish model. Would you like that repeated again?

I like the idea of applying the 1% USC rate on all income.

Meaningless tokenism. It would have to be much higher to be anything more than that.

Also I do think there is scope to increase effective rates of corporation tax.

What, from 11.9% (what it is now) to 12.1%? Again, meaningless tokenism.

I also think that wages increases in public and private sectors will drive demand, in turn, increasing income tax take, increasing VAT take, increasing employment, in turn reducing the welfare bill.

That would be a disaster and economically is complete nonsense.

All of these factors will facilitate a re-adjustment of the income tax system, reducing the burden on higher earners without unduly penalising low-income earners or cutting welfare rates. Simultaneously, low-income earners will contribute a greater % portion of the income tax take.

That’s typical socialist thinking; everything can be done without anyone really having to pay for it.

Unless you have better ideas (no more off the cuff nonsense please) then I will leave it at that.

That’s a bit rich.


I’m glad that you have accepted that the tax base is too narrow and that high earners are over taxed. We just have to get you to take the other pinko tinted lens out of your glasses and you’ll realise that if one group pays less then another group has to pay more (as we must ignore any fantasy “borrow and pay ourselves more to dig ourselves out of the hole” mad hatter economics).

 

[TheBigShort]

No I am not. I know only two well the difficulties imposed through taxes and charges on working people.

i have no issue with agreeing that paying 40% tax on income after €33,800 is excessive.

I’m glad that you have accepted that the tax base is too narrow and that high earners are over taxed.

You haven't been paying attention Purple.

 

[TheBigShort]

That would be a disaster and economically is complete nonsense.

The problem as I see it is that you want to keep wages as low as possible to remain competitive whilst simultaneously increase the tax take from those low wages.
Furthermore, those that have high incomes need to be facilitated with tax breaks, even though by your reckoning, its high incomes that make us uncompetitive.
Perhaps cutting the incomes of high earners would work? This will reduce their tax burden and also make them more competitive?

 

[Firefly]

I also think that wages increases in public and private sectors will drive demand, in turn, increasing income tax take, increasing VAT take, increasing employment, in turn reducing the welfare bill.

Well, it looks like PS wages are on the up so that's that box ticked for you. Apart from raising the minimum wage, how do you propose that wages across the private sector be increased?

 

[Firefly]

Perhaps cutting the incomes of high earners would work?

How?

 

[jjm]

firefly said how
Already happening using tax system

 

[Purple]

You haven't been paying attention Purple.

I have. That's why I see that you have now accepted it.

 

[TheBigShort]

Simply paying people more won't cut the mustard

Its not a case of simply paying more. Its a case of living in an economy where domestic demand has taken a beating, suppressing wages, suppressing demand,increasing unemployment etc. There is growth in the economy now but it is broadly generated from the export sector. It is unbalanced.

we still had people on trolleys in A&E

How do propose to resolve this? Reduce medical staff numbers or cut incomes? Or increase taxes on nurses etc?
Or increase staff numbers and provide better resources?

the buses & trains were often late,

Not sure about the buses these days but my experience is that the trains are pretty efficient these days. Certainly I think the NTA would back that up.

school class sizes were probably the same

Again, how would you propose to reduce class sizes? Build more schools, employ more teachers - wouldn't this require more taxes?

I was using a private company for my refuse collection, ditto for my electricity.

I use a private company to collect my waste. I seperate my waster for environmental purposes. When it is collected, the contents of each bin is dumped into the same truck.

ditto for the motor tax office

Very efficient on-line service available. The que was most probably down to their being only one office in Dublin. But to have more offices would cost more taxes.
Ideally motor tax could be scrapped and a fuel charge applied?

I accept the issue in rural Ireland regarding crime, however this has as much to do with public servants retiring early and the improved road network than anything else

Are you saying public servants who retire early are involved in organised crime??

The train drivers will be on strike looking for more pay yet there was a report out yesterday that the infrastructure itself is falling apart.

How would you fix the infrastructure? I've an idea, say the government borrows from the ECB at 0% to invest in the infrastructure. The bulk of the money will go to workers who can fix the infrastructure. Unemployment will fall, income tax receipts will increase, as will VAT etc. This could, in some part, facilitate the re-structuring of the income tax system that is called for here, without unduly burdening low income earners or cutting welfare.
Just an idea.

 

[Purple]

The problem as I see it is that you want to keep wages as low as possible to remain competitive whilst simultaneously increase the tax take from those low wages.

I want us to be more competitive. If we can't increase competitiveness then we can't increase wages. The State sector is the biggest draw on income so if they massively increase efficiency (try to get up to average OECD levels) it will allow us to deliver better services at no extra cost. that in itself will reduce costs and increase competitiveness nationally.

Furthermore, those that have high incomes need to be facilitated with tax breaks, even though by your reckoning, its high incomes that make us uncompetitive.

High wages relative to labour efficiency is the issue. the Swiss are hughly paid but very productive. We are far less productive (particularly in the State and domestic sector).

The problem as I see it is that you want to keep wages as low as possible to remain competitive whilst simultaneously increase the tax take from those low wages.

I want us to be more competitive. If we can't increase competitiveness then we can't increase wages. The State sector is the biggest draw on income so if they massively increase efficiency (try to get up to average OECD levels) it will allow us to deliver better services at no extra cost. that in itself will reduce costs and increase competitiveness nationally.

Perhaps cutting the incomes of high earners would work? This will reduce their tax burden and also make them more competitive?

It will reduce tax take and necessitate a reduction in pay in the state sector.

 

[TheBigShort]

I have. That's why I see that you have no accepted it.

Accepted what? That on page 3 of this topic I stated taxes were too high on incomes of €33,800?
Perhaps its you that cant accept that transferring the tax liability from high earners to low earners is simply not sustainable?

 

[Gerry Canning]

I hear a lot about State Sector type higher wages.
I don,t know for sure but are our State Employees not appreciably less in number pro-rata than most countries ? If so their pro-rata costs come down v other countries?

If our State Employees are shown to be more (productive) than State Employees in other jurisdictions , then happy us.
From what I see most State Employees are on modest nuff wages.
If its the case that a small cohort of our State Employees are overpaid V other jurisdictions , then get that sorted now.

 

[Purple]

Its not a case of simply paying more. Its a case of living in an economy where domestic demand has taken a beating, suppressing wages, suppressing demand,increasing unemployment etc. There is growth in the economy now but it is broadly generated from the export sector. It is unbalanced.

It is a good thing to increase the proportion of our economy wich is in the export sector. That’s exactly what we should be doing. It was the shift to the domestic sector which was a major cause of the crash we experienced.

How do propose to resolve this? Reduce medical staff numbers or cut incomes? Or increase taxes on nurses etc?

Or increase staff numbers and provide better resources?

Get them to do their jobs better. We have a dysfunctional health sector and doctors and nurses are a major part of the problem (and therefore the solution). We have the worst value for money health service in the OECD. Throwing more money at it is like giving a pay rise to the guys in the fast food restaurant who gave you food poisoning.

Not sure about the buses these days but my experience is that the trains are pretty efficient these days. Certainly I think the NTA would back that up.

Busses are much better than they used to be. It’s amazing what the threat of competition can do!

Again, how would you propose to reduce class sizes? Build more schools, employ more teachers - wouldn't this require more taxes?

Reducing class sizes is about the worst value for money thing you can do in the education sector. It requires more schools and more teachers. What we need is more non classroom facilities, more specialist teachers and generally better training. Teachers with the balls to mark their own students would also help.

I use a private company to collect my waste. I seperate my waster for environmental purposes. When it is collected, the contents of each bin is dumped into the same truck.

Have you reported them?

Very efficient on-line service available. The que was most probably down to their being only one office in Dublin. But to have more offices would cost more taxes.

Ideally motor tax could be scrapped and a fuel charge applied?

Agreed.

Are you saying public servants who retire early are involved in organised crime??

How would you fix the infrastructure? I've an idea, say the government borrows from the ECB at 0% to invest in the infrastructure. The bulk of the money will go to workers who can fix the infrastructure. Unemployment will fall, income tax receipts will increase, as will VAT etc. This could, in some part, facilitate the re-structuring of the income tax system that is called for here, without unduly burdening low income earners or cutting welfare.

Just an idea.

We have a lack of skilled labour in this country, particularly in the construction sector. We really don’t need another situation where semi-skilled bricklayers are getting paid €2500 a week.

 

[Purple]

Accepted what? That on page 3 of this topic I stated taxes were too high on incomes of €33,800?
Perhaps its you that cant accept that transferring the tax liability from high earners to low earners is simply not sustainable?

So you think someone earning €33,800 a year is a high earner?