Credit Union prayer - time to leave this anachronism behind

[T McGibney]

But again we're not discussing religious beliefs (extreme or otherwise) here, merely discussing a Christian custom.

If you're arguing that the Credit Union prayer is a form of child abuse, then this clearly is nonsense.

 

[JoeB]

It's an interesting way to phrase it, but yes, I would say that the prayer is somewhere on a slippery slope, .. and at the bottom of the slope are extreme and unfounded beliefs.

Simply put, we can do without these superstitions.

 

[T McGibney]

But I could just as easily say that money is also on a slippery slope because some people steal and others will do extreme things for money. So we should get rid of money?

 

[dewdrop]

Slighty off topic does not the Dail commence proceedings daily with a prayer. Would it take a referendum to dispense with this?

 

[dereko1969]

Slighty off topic does not the Dail commence proceedings daily with a prayer. Would it take a referendum to dispense with this?

I don't think the Constitution requires the Dáil to commence with a prayer, there's lots of God stuff in the Constitution that shouldn't be there in my opinion, also the President/Judges have to swear on the Bible on getting the job, no affirmation for them.

The Dáil could just change it's arrangements very easily.

 

[Mpsox]

Is it actually such a bad thing to have a prayer or a moment of quiet reflection before a meeting? If you don't want to pray, fine, but take time out and contemplate why you are there instead. Maybe some of our bankers should have done that in the boom years.

 

[Complainer]

Is it actually such a bad thing to have a prayer or a moment of quiet reflection before a meeting?

Quiet reflection - fine by me.

But why choose a prayer for a community organisation which does not reflect the membership of that organisation?

It is not a matter of disrespecting religous beliefs - it is a matter of the appropriateness of the context. If I was to propose prayers before the Ryanair AGM, or the union branch meeting, or the GAA 'bad behaviour' review meeting, I would almost certainly be refused - and rightly so. Prayers at a non-religious community organisation are not appropriate.

 

[T McGibney]

If I was to propose prayers before the Ryanair AGM, or the union branch meeting, or the GAA 'bad behaviour' review meeting, I would almost certainly be refused - and rightly so.

Short prayers are sometimes said at the conclusion of GAA meetings, normally as a mark of respect to recently-deceased members. If someone present requests that a prayer be said, that request is almost always honoured. A minutes silence is common at the start of games, for the same purpose.

 

[The_Banker]

Generally the parish priest is on the Board of Management of Credit Unions also. If it was up to me I would get rid of the Credit Union prayer and the parish priest from the BOM.

I think I will go to the next CU meeting to see if I can get the prayer abolished. Propose a motion, get it seconded and have it voted on. If it comes to a vote it will more than likely fail as generally it is the older generation who attend these AGMs, but it might make a few others think.

 

[Crugers]

Firstly the so called prayer is sometimes referred to as an/the 'Invocation' but it is the Christian Prayer of St Francis
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.

Most of the sentiment fits well with the Operating Principles of the Credit Union Movement. However the words in bold type don't sit well in an organisation which has as one of its Principles NON DISCRIMINATION IN RACE, RELIGION AND POLITICS.


So to return to the OP's original points.
The Credit Union Act 1997 S80(2)(b) states that notice of AGM "[FONT=&quot]shall be accompanied by the agenda for the meeting;[/FONT]"

If the 'INVOCATION' isn't on the Agenda then it specifically must not happen! If a 'call to prayer' is made then it could be objected to on 'a point of order'!
Points of Order are always so welcome at AGM's!
Make the point that the 'invocation' is not on the agenda and therefore must not be part of the meeting, retake your seat and await the "Wrath"!

As to submitting a resolution and how to word it -
Contact the Secretary of the Credit Union and request details of the procedure you should follow for submitting a Resolution. The wording should be along the lines:
"That this AGM resolves to adhere to the Operating Principles of the Credit Union Movement specifically "NON DISCRIMINATION IN RACE, RELIGION AND POLITICS" and resolves not to include or recite the Christian Prayer of St Francis at any of its meetings.

Model Standing Orders refer to Motions (Resolutions) thus
5 - 10 MOTIONS.
5. All motions from the floor of the AGM must be proposed and seconded by members present at the AGM and moved by the proposer. If the proposer is absent when the motion is called, the motion shall be deemed to have failed.
6. A proposer of a motion may speak for such period as shall be at the discretion of theChairman of the meeting and shall have the right of reply before the motion is put to the meeting for a vote.
7. In exercising his/her right of reply, a proposer may not introduce new material.
8. The seconder of a motion shall have such time as shall be allowed by the Chairman to second the motion.
9. Members are entitled to speak on any such motion and must do so through the Chair. All speakers to any motion shall have such time as shall be at the discretion of the Chairman.
10. The Chairman shall have the absolute right to decide at any time when a motion has been sufficiently discussed and may put the motion to the meeting giving the proposer the right of reply before doing so.

HTH

 

[Bronte]

Short prayers are sometimes said at the conclusion of GAA meetings, normally as a mark of respect to recently-deceased members. If someone present requests that a prayer be said, that request is almost always honoured. A minutes silence is common at the start of games, for the same purpose.

It is disrespectful to people who do not wish to say a prayer to ask it be said.

No problem with a minutes silence.

Crugers, that's a great post, hopefully one day I'll be able to do just that at a credit union meeting. There is a time and place for everything and religion should not be brought into a credit union meeting.

 

[T McGibney]

It is disrespectful to people who do not wish to say a prayer to ask it be said.

On that basis, I presume that it is equally disrespectful to ask people to stand for the national anthem at public events, if they do not wish to do so?

 

[Locke]

Lets just go with this, a hybrid prayer:

Our IMF, who art in Europe,
Worried of your name.
Your kingdom came,
Bertie we’ll blame,
In Tuam as it is in Mayo.

Give us this day, our daily (bread crumbs)
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Lead us not into temptation,
And deliver us from fierce austerity and radio shows constantly talking to politicians.

Ah-well.

 

[JoeB]

The problem is that it becomes difficult to criticise cults and obviously false religions, when there are established religions demanding respect for their beliefs, when their beliefs are also likely to be false.

As a society we should criticise all faith based beliefs equally, and ban the teaching of religion to children as if it's true. Even by parents if that was possible.

The world is at war,.. one only needs to look at America, and the battle there trying to get creationism taught in schools as if it has the same truth value as evolution, it clearly does not,.. and the pseudo-scientific arguments that it does are false. But they are well constructed, and complex, so they do trick people. There's also the American Talaban, where 40 million people follow preachers who advocate a return to Old Testament law,.. bringing back the death penalty for adultery, as per Leviticus.

I'm unsure what to do about Santa, and the Tooth Fairy.

 

[Complainer]

So to return to the OP's original points.
The Credit Union Act 1997 S80(2)(b) states that notice of AGM "[FONT=&quot]shall be accompanied by the agenda for the meeting;[/FONT]"

If the 'INVOCATION' isn't on the Agenda then it specifically must not happen! If a 'call to prayer' is made then it could be objected to on 'a point of order'!
Points of Order are always so welcome at AGM's!
Make the point that the 'invocation' is not on the agenda and therefore must not be part of the meeting, retake your seat and await the "Wrath"!

As to submitting a resolution and how to word it -
Contact the Secretary of the Credit Union and request details of the procedure you should follow for submitting a Resolution. The wording should be along the lines:
"That this AGM resolves to adhere to the Operating Principles of the Credit Union Movement specifically "NON DISCRIMINATION IN RACE, RELIGION AND POLITICS" and resolves not to include or recite the Christian Prayer of St Francis at any of its meetings.

Model Standing Orders refer to Motions (Resolutions) thus
5 - 10 MOTIONS.
5. All motions from the floor of the AGM must be proposed and seconded by members present at the AGM and moved by the proposer. If the proposer is absent when the motion is called, the motion shall be deemed to have failed.
6. A proposer of a motion may speak for such period as shall be at the discretion of theChairman of the meeting and shall have the right of reply before the motion is put to the meeting for a vote.
7. In exercising his/her right of reply, a proposer may not introduce new material.
8. The seconder of a motion shall have such time as shall be allowed by the Chairman to second the motion.
9. Members are entitled to speak on any such motion and must do so through the Chair. All speakers to any motion shall have such time as shall be at the discretion of the Chairman.
10. The Chairman shall have the absolute right to decide at any time when a motion has been sufficiently discussed and may put the motion to the meeting giving the proposer the right of reply before doing so.

Thanks - very helpful. Is there any specific provisions about members putting down resolutions BEFORE the AGM, so that they get listed on the agenda, possibly with a supporting statement?

 

[Crugers]

Thanks - very helpful. Is there any specific provisions about members putting down resolutions BEFORE the AGM, so that they get listed on the agenda, possibly with a supporting statement?

That is where the "Contact the Secretary of the Credit Union and request details of the procedure you should follow for submitting a Resolution." comes in...
AFAIK neither the Standard Rules (ILCU) nor the CU Act 1997 specifies a procedure that must/should be followed. It would therefore be open to each CU as to what the appropriate procedure should be.

For ILCU AGMs, the League circulate details of proposed resolutions/motions well before the meeting so CU Boards can decide what way their delegate is mandated to vote.
The procedure in individual CUs would differ since it is not a meeting of delegates but of individual Members.
Have you ever had notice from your CU of any resolution/motion that is listed for proposal at any AGM? Usually there are ILCU Rule changes that require approval by individual CUs. If you were not notified of the details then, it is unlikely that the CU would change SOP's and include your resolution/motion on the Agenda notice prior to the AGM.

 

[Complainer]

That is where the "Contact the Secretary of the Credit Union and request details of the procedure you should follow for submitting a Resolution." comes in...
AFAIK neither the Standard Rules (ILCU) nor the CU Act 1997 specifies a procedure that must/should be followed. It would therefore be open to each CU as to what the appropriate procedure should be.

Thanks - it's a bit strange that this is so vague, for a membership institution. I'd have expected that there would be clear guidelines about how members get resolutions down on the agenda. This was the case even in the good old days with the building societies - you need support of 25 or 50 members to get a resolution down, and you could submit a supporting text of 300 words to explain it. A cynic might think that the CU don't want to encourage members to be really active within their organisation!

Have you ever had notice from your CU of any resolution/motion that is listed for proposal at any AGM? Usually there are ILCU Rule changes that require approval by individual CUs. If you were not notified of the details then, it is unlikely that the CU would change SOP's and include your resolution/motion on the Agenda notice prior to the AGM.

Just don't remember, I'm afraid.

It is disrespectful to people who do not wish to say a prayer to ask it be said.

No problem with a minutes silence.

Crugers, that's a great post, hopefully one day I'll be able to do just that at a credit union meeting. There is a time and place for everything and religion should not be brought into a credit union meeting.

Generally the parish priest is on the Board of Management of Credit Unions also. If it was up to me I would get rid of the Credit Union prayer and the parish priest from the BOM.

I think I will go to the next CU meeting to see if I can get the prayer abolished. Propose a motion, get it seconded and have it voted on. If it comes to a vote it will more than likely fail as generally it is the older generation who attend these AGMs, but it might make a few others think.

I'm wondering about which would be the best tactic - do I try and raise it with no advance notice from the floor of the AGM? Or do I submit a resolution to the board beforehand, in the hope that they will include it on the Agenda. I can't see it getting any serious time or attention if raised under AOB when everybody wants to get on to the important business of the night - the draw for the free 'attendance' prizes. On the other hand, I'm wondering if the board will just go with tradition and block the resolution, in the absence of any clear guidelines about such resolutions.

 

[Crugers]

Thanks - it's a bit strange that this is so vague, for a membership institution. I'd have expected that there would be clear guidelines about how members get resolutions down on the agenda.

To remain affilliated to the ILCU you must comply with the Standard Rules for Credit Unions... Changes to those Rules are proposed at and adopted by ILCU AGM, not CU's AGM.

It may not be vague in your CU. They may have a policy on procedure to propose resolution/motion at AGM. It is just that there is NO movement wide recommended procedure laid out in the Act or the Standard Rules.

 

[Complainer]

The response from my CU is to submit the resolution 'for the consideration of the Board of Directors'. It just seems a bit vague, and makes it very easy for them say 'no' to something that challenges their tradition.

 

[extopia]

I think it's extraordinary that a meeting of a credit union would contain would begin with a superstitious ritual. The same goes for RTE's Angelus bells, or the various references to supernatural entities in our Constitution.

If I was taking part in such meetings, I would certainly not participate in the ritual, and would loudly protest its inclusion, which discriminates against rational, non-superstitious people.