Continuous calls from solicitor for cert of completion

R

roadrunner13

Registered User
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8
Hi,

7 years ago my brother and his wife built their own house. They retained a solicitor and an engineer in order to draw down a mortgage. They paid both for the services and have been living in the house and paying the mortgage ever since.

Lately the solicitor has told my brother that the law society and the bank are on his case to furnish a cert of compliance, and it now transpires that the engineer wants €2k to issue this cert. My brother is adamant that he paid all that was due and can't understand why this would be an issue 7years down the road. Plus both he and his wife were made redundant are just don't have €2k.

Surely the professionals my brother hired at the time should have done their due diligence and the bank should not have released the mortgage unless all the paperwork was in order. The solicitor is known as a bit of a bully and has been harassing my brother and wife with multiple phone calls daily.

Any ideas who is accountable here?

Thanks in advance and apologies for the length of the post.
 
"Any ideas who is accountable here? "

It was ( and still is) part of your brothers obligations under the terms of getting his mortgage that he would, at the end of the build, furnish an Engineers Certificate of Compliance with Planning Permission and Building Regulations.

It would be usual for the bank to require interim Certificates for periodic drawdowns. The solicitor should have covered his own back by making sure that the final drawdown did not occur until the final Engineers Certificates of Compliance with Planning Permission and Building Regulations were issued.

All too often what happens is that the client is so desperate to get the money for the last push that they will promise the sun, moon, earth and stars to anyone if they can have the money quickly . And after that, eaten bread is soon forgotten!

But if your brother won't do it, then it may well be that the solicitor has to foot the cost to at least get the Bank off his back but he will be entitled to sue your brother for the money. And that is not bullying - its being pragmatic.

mf
 
Thanks for the reply mf,

You are making assumptions that the client (my brother) promised the sun etc to get the final drawdown. In actual fact they were in the position to hand back €20k of the morgage they didn't use, but anyway....
My brother hired professionals to guide him through the legal and planning process, and paid them in full on what he was told was completion, otherwise why would the bank issue him the mortgage?
His solicitor implied that 7 years ago banks were not worried about this paperwork, but that now it was an issue.
The engineer 7 years ago claimed he was fully paid but now wants a further €2k (despite the fact that he never visited the build after the raft went in). He did arrive unannounced recently, my brother's wife who was in the house alone with 2 small children thought he was a prowler.
I suspect that in 2006 rather than going out on a limb and not covering his back in order to do my brother a favour this solicitor cut corners because he was so busy, likewise the engineer and bank.
And they now expect the person who hired them to do this negligent work to pay for their lack of due diligence. I may just be a little bit cynical however.
On what grounds could he sue my brother, if it was he who failed to make sure all was in order?
When I mentioned bullying I was referring to the multiple daily phone calls that he seems to employ in order to harass.
 
mf1 wasn't making assumptions about your brother, s/he was stating his/her experience in the area generally.
 
Providing a Certificate of Completion is an integral part of any self-build project process. Has your brother shopped around for the best engineer deal?
 
Thanks for the replies,

Maybe I'm confusing the issue with the length of my posts.

My brother hired an engineer and paid him in full. He hired a solicitor to draw down a mortgage, make sure everything was in order and paid him in full. The bank provided him with a mortgage which he pays every month.

Now 7 years later the solicitor says everything is not in order and my brother is on the hook for €2k.

The solicitor should not have drawn down the money until all due diligence was complete (regardless of mf1's general experience in this area)
The engineer should have issued the cert he was paid to complete.
The bank should not have granted the remainder of the mortgage based on incomplete paperwork. (incidently my brother called the bank and they have no problem with his mortgage a/c).

I work as a painter/decorator if through my own fault I painted someone's house the wrong colour I would consider it a bit rich to expect the client to pay for my mistake. This sense of accountability doesn't seem to exist in the professional class!

Anyway it's all irrelevant as my brother and his wife are broke. Their main concern is to fill the oil tank for winter, they just worry when a well heeled solicitor harasses them daily to sort out a mess he could have prevented if he did his job 7 years ago.
 
You asked initially for advice. You got a response from a highly regarded board member. The advice is not what you wanted. You wanted someone to tell you that either solicitor or engineer was at fault.

You say solicitor should not have drawn down the money. if he hadn't, there would be a complaint that he wouldn't let people into house. Perhaps, and it is a perhaps, solicitor drew down the money, on the understanding/promise/commitment of your brother to drop it in once house was completed. On the other hand, was engineer asked for it at the time? Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

It is required now and there is work in getting it. Engineer must review plans, compare with planning permissions granted and confirm that it is built in accordance therewith.

There a difference to painting the house the wrong colour and the problem your brother has.

Anyway, at the end of the day as you say its irrelevant. But it's not. Title to the house may be affected if the cert of compliance is not available. If the house is to be sold or transferred, it will cause problems.
 
The core issue here is that your brother does not have a cert of completion for his house. He says that he paid a Engineer to provide this at the time and now the Engineer is saying that he was not contracted or paid to do this.

This is a rough situation to be faced with when he is under financial pressure, and I have sympathy. But that is the core issue, not the fact that the Solicitor has just discovered it and it very insistant that your brother help him solve it.

Does he have paperwork for his contract with the Engineer saying what the Engineer was supposed to do. given the importance of the engineers role in a self-build, he must have had a written agreement ?
 
Ravima you are correct when you say that I want advice that confirms my argument, actually what I would really like is advice from someone who has been in a similar position and how it worked out for them.
The painting analogy was not an attempt to compare like with like just an attempt to emphasise the lack of accountability in certain sectors of Irish society (this may have gone over your head, not to worry). I take your point though on title to the house and problems down he road, however thankfully this is not an issue at the moment. The rest of your post is just supposition, and therefore neither here nor there.

Huskerdu
You are right about the core issue (the lack of a cert). Unfortunately my brother has no paperwork at all, he expected the solicitor to seek and submit all documentation along the way, and paid him to do just that. The thing is though my brother doesn't need the cert... yet anyway and hopefully never will. The bank are demanding it from his solicitor.

i think mf1 clarified who is liable when he stated that the solicitor "should have covered his back by making sure that the final drawdown did not occur until the final engineers certs".etc

Thanks for the interaction folks, however someone must have had a similar problem to the one i have described and if so I would really like to hear how they got on.
 
We built a house 6 years ago. The engineer gave us the final certification relating to compliance. Does your brother have nothing at all? Emails even?
 
You say the engineer gave you the final certificate relating to compliance, but are you sure you are not talking about the last certificate he gave you to draw down the last stage payment of the loan, getting a loan in stages was common in a self build.
If so you are confusing two things. It was often the case that a completion certificate, which is a document forming a crucial part of you title deeds was included in the fee agreed with the engineer overseeing the build, but, it was also common that people just paid an engineer each time he visited site and did a completion notice to allow a further draw down of money. The should know themselves which the did.
 
roadrunner13 said:
Huskerdu
You are right about the core issue (the lack of a cert). Unfortunately my brother has no paperwork at all, he expected the solicitor to seek and submit all documentation along the way, and paid him to do just that. The thing is though my brother doesn't need the cert... yet anyway and hopefully never will. The bank are demanding it from his solicitor.
Click to expand...

But, your brother built the house, or paid a contractor to built the house.
He paid an engineer and was under the impression that he paid the engineer to supply the cert of compliance.

Did he really think that the solicitor was project managing the project to down to that level of detail.

Your brother does need the cert. His house is unsellable without it, and he promised the Mortgage company he would get one.
 
It turns out there may be many houses without certs of completion.

Its only relevant because some dude writing Mortgage Bond rules deemed a cert to be necessary as evidence that house was completed/

Some who never drew down the full amount on a self build are in that position.

It does not have to be your original engineer.

If its less than 6 years threaten to sue the engineer

I think this has no implications for title and banks know this.
 
Hey WizardDr,

Thanks for the reply, I think you are right. The amount of dodgy/ incomplete conveyancing records that seem to be on record. Even nama have a nightmare on their hands trying to sort out title to property.
It's been 7 years though, i may just help out my brother and get an engineer to sort it for him. They are worried and are just not able to hold their own against this solicitor.
It just bugs me that these guys did not do what they were paid to do originally. I get the impression on here that people think my brother was foolish not to look after these issues himself and perhaps he was. He honestly thought by retaining an engineer and solicitor he would be free to build the house without having to worry about the paperwork side of things.

Huskerdu,
Of course he didn't expect his solicitor to project manage, but a notification when there was a legal document outstanding is not much to expect.
 
OP, although I don't know the answer to your question, I sense you not getting good advice on this thread. A lot of supposition is going on.

I did a self build 10 years ago. Never got any certificate of compliance. (I've only vaguely heard of such a thing). I never did anything about title ... I have title deeds to the land, that is all. I have no mortgage. I'm not thinking of selling any time soon, so if there's a problem I'll deal with it in my own good time.

So, who says your brother needs a certificate of compliance? Is it the bank who is belatedly trying to make sure the title to the property is good? Or is the solicitor doing this off his own bat, and if so why? However, the main question is -- what are the consequences (for your brother, not anyone else) of not doing it? If there are no immediate consequences, then he can just tell whoever it is to go stuff themselves (perhaps not in so many words). Just tell them he hasn't got the money and he's not doing it.

Just as an aside, I would find the concept of certified compliance quite hilarious in an ironic kind of way. I had restrictions on everything from wall and roof colours, to house type, orientation on "existing building line" (even though there was nobody within hundreds of yards of me), type of planting etc. etc. I complied with every detail. Now I have close neighbours on either side which the planners allowed to build utterly different house types, different colours, reoriented to face a sea view etc. etc. Both overlooking me in a semi-unpleasant way. I've half a mind to demand a certificate of compliance with their own policies from the planners. Complete joke.
 
In the past banks would not release funds unless they had, inter alia, a Certificate of Title from clients solicitor which i assume that a certificate of compliance would be part of the certification. Does such a cert of compliance confirm planning conditions had been adhered to as i recall when i enquired if planning authorities ever checked compliance i was told that the requirement of this compliance cert was in effect what ensured compliance. Apologies for poorly worded contribution.
 
From WizardDr

"I think this has no implications for title and banks know this. "

This is wrong. A Certificate of Compliance is part of title and is required when mortgaging or selling.

The difficulty with build projects is that the bank funds are drawn down in stages ergo there cannot be a Certificate of Compliance ( that the property was constructed in accordance with planning permission and Building Regulations) until after the property is built which is after most of the mortgage is drawn down.


Advice from dub nerd.

"I did a self build 10 years ago. Never got any certificate of compliance. (I've only vaguely heard of such a thing). I never did anything about title ... I have title deeds to the land, that is all. I have no mortgage. I'm not thinking of selling any time soon, so if there's a problem I'll deal with it in my own good time."

Bully for you. You have not addressed any of your title issues. But then you don't have a mortgage so there is no imperative for you to deal with your title issues.

"So, who says your brother needs a certificate of compliance?"

The. Bank. Who. Lent. Him. The. Money.

mf
 
mf1 said:
"So, who says your brother needs a certificate of compliance?"

The. Bank. Who. Lent. Him. The. Money.

mf
Click to expand...

It doesn't seem that they are the one doing the chasing. Why's that? And in any case my question is -- what are they going to do about it? Was it their mistake in not ensuring proper title in the beginning? Meanwhile the OP has pointed out his brother's not unreasonable expectation that everything necessary would have been put in order by the professionals employed at the time. A large bill seven years on seems outrageous. He'll have to pay it eventually if he wants to sell, but he doesn't have the money now and unless someone has leverage to compel him to pay it now, why should he?
 
Thanks Dub Nerd, you have it in a nutshell. My brother has an excellent relationship with the bank. They have not sought anything from him, nor is he looking to sell his house.
 
Hard to see the point in this thread when the OP poses a question on a subject where they clearly have already formed a fixed opinion.
 
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