Cheapest Self-Directed PRSA Pension for ETF / ETFs (and ideally property!)

SPC100

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I am considering switching to a self directed PRSA with a view to reducing (or at the very least confirming) the costs on my pension.

I imagine that nil commission / execution only will be the cheapest way to go.

I am aware that the headline AMC + an ETF's TER may initially look higher vs a traditional PRSA, but as Irish companies are not required to publish TERs for the funds we cant do an exact comparison, the self directed route might actually be cheaper. (better the devil you can see..)

I think these are the only guys offering a self directed PRSA which supports buying ETFs;

Davy
Standard Life
Zurich
Irish Life

Which guys am I missing?
 
This is a very good question and well timed as I have just agreed terms for a new PRSA contract.

The base cost is 0.5%pa for the PRSA based on a minimum fund size of €100,000. This is payable to a revenue appointed independent trustee.
There is a separate cost of 0.05%pa payable to an FSA regulated Stockbroker in London. The stockbrocker acts as independent custodian and charges all trades at a flat rate of €30 each excluding incidental costs like stamp duty on UK and Irish stocks.

The benefit of splitting out the trustee, custodian, fund management and advisory services into separate companies can be explained in three words: Custom House Capital.

So for example if I put in a global equity fund I can have over 10,000 stocks including emerging markets for a TER of 0.62%. Giving a total cost for the contract of 1.17%pa on an audited TER basis before advisory costs. On a like for like basis, the annual management charge of this fund is 0.42%pa and therefore total disclosed charge is actually only 0.97%pa. Note that this is one of the more expensive funds I use and typically bond funds are around 0.15% to 0.25%pa which would substantially reduce the cost of a balanced portfolio to more like 0.9%pa.

Of course this is something that doesn't happen in an off the shelf PRSA where you typically pay 1%pa for equity funds but also 1%pa for cash and bond funds.

This contract is only available for core pension investments and is comprised of institutional class index funds from Vanguard, Blackrock and Dimensional who between them manage over 5 trillion US$. This part is not self directed.

However we can also add on a self directed element for anyone wanting to run a Las Vegas account as part of their pension. This has a higher annual management charge of 1.25%pa on investments under €100,000 but again transactions are charged at a flat rate.

This part of the PRSA can include property,hedge funds,private equity, ETFs and individual securities.

So, a typical client might have a total pension pot of say €200,000 of which say €30k is in some illiquid product that they can't get out of even if they wanted to.

We can take in the whole lot, put €170k into a globally diversified portfolio of low cost funds appropriate to their willingness, ability and need to take investment risk and we can carve out the €30k into a separate plan.

Overall based on the earlier example of a 0.9%amc for 170k and 1.25% for the other part this would result in an overall plan charge of 0.9525%pa before advisory and trading costs.

So for anyone stuck owning illiquid assets they wish they had never purchased (custom house clients for example) this could be a good solution.

Equally anyone who wants to take a punt with a couple of grand of their pension fund can open a separate account specifically for that purpose and not have to expose their whole pension to the additional costs associated with full self-directed functionality. The minimum investment here would be €2000 when linked to a pension portfolio.

Finally I should mention that this contract is only available through my network of approved professional advisers and advisory fees are payable in all instances.
 
Hi Marc,

Thanks for all the info. Keeping on the ETF track, If someone organised an execution only self directed PRSA contract for buying and selling ETFs they select themselves, are these your costs for the consumer?

-Contribution Charge 0%
-buying/selling ETF charges 30Euro per trade plus stamp duty if appropriate
-Annual Mgmt charge .5%+.05%+1.25% or is 1.25% in total? (for funds <100k)
-Maybe you have a price for AMC if fund is > 100k also?
 
STANDARD LIFE
===========
1% AMC
Contribution charge can be 0 for a nil comission product, depends on the channel you buy it through
PRSA can only do shares, deposits, and synergy fund - NO ETFS (note - Other pension structures support ETFs and direct property)

Stockbroker - execution only via Stocktrade, a division of Brewin Dolphin Limited.

Nice guarantee - "As Standard Life in Ireland operates as a branch of our UK parent company, policies taken
out since 1 December 2001 are covered by the UK's Financial Services Compensation
Scheme (FSCS) in the event that Standard Life is in default. This means that if you invest in
a Standard Life pension or investment policy in Ireland, your policy is covered by the FSCS,
which covers 90% of the claim, without any upper limit. For more information visit the
FSCS website, www.fscs.org.uk"

[broken link removed]
 
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Independent Trustee Company also have a self-directed PRSA product.

100% allocation. AMC 1.25% <€100,000, 1% >€100,000 and 0.75% >€1,000,000.
 
Hi Marc,

Thanks for all the info. Keeping on the ETF track, If someone organised an execution only self directed PRSA contract for buying and selling ETFs they select themselves, are these your costs for the consumer?

-Contribution Charge 0%
-buying/selling ETF charges 30Euro per trade plus stamp duty if appropriate
-Annual Mgmt charge .5%+.05%+1.25% or is 1.25% in total? (for funds <100k)
-Maybe you have a price for AMC if fund is > 100k also?

Hi Spc

No, an execution only contract would have an AMC starting at 1.25% pa for funds under 100k plus fund management charges on top of that.

Above 100k you would pay 1%pa plus fund management costs on top.

So execution only really isn't the way to go here.
 
Finally I should mention that this contract is only available through my network of approved professional advisers and advisory fees are payable in all instances.

If someone has, say €100,000, how much is the advice?
 
Thanks for all the feedback so far. If you have pricing details on any of these or similar products please let me know.

Davy Self-Directed PRSA
===================
AMC .75% (levied in may and nov based on a valuation taken on a given day in may and nov)
Contribution Charge 0%

Commission is based on doing your trades online.
Standard Minimum commission 25 euro or .75% on first 25k and .5% on balance
Frequent Trader (after 20 trades a year) minimum commission 15 euro or .5% on first 25k and .25% on balance

Foreign transaction custody charge(for each trade outside Ireland & UK) 25 euro
Exchange fees (applied to share purchase and sales) over 12.5k 1.25 euro
overseas brokers fees varies - typically .15%


http://www.davy.ie/Generic?page=selfdirectedcommissionsandcharges
http://www.davy.ie/TopLevel?page=commissionsandchargesroi
http://www.davy.ie/content/pubarticles/OnlinePRSABrochure.pdf
 
To update this thread, I understand that Davy's are about to make their Self Directed PRSA (detailed above) significantly more competitive. I believe they will become the market leader for self directed PRSAs, especially for someone who wants to passively buy and hold ETF's in a pension product.

I understand it will be announced publicly over the next few weeks, but as the information I have was given to me privately I don't want to put it in public domain without permission.
 
Hi SPC100,

Did Davy ever launch this product and is it the current market leader for self directed PRSA.

Also, do you know how dividends are handled. I presume they are paid into you trading account within your PRSA and you use that cash to reinvest, paying commissions on the transaction.

Thanks,

3CC
 
Their PRSA fees still stand as per post #8 in this thread.

I was told that they were unable as of yet to launch a better value product, but that they still want to do so, and plan to do so.

I understand that dividends work as you described, some could also be kept in cash to pay for the levy and the .75% AMC.

I think there is .5% commission built into the .75% AMC, so it might be possible to get the product at an AMC of .25% via a discount execution only broker? If you do further research and confirm this please update the thread!

It is the best value transparent PRSA product that I know of for a long term buy and hold investor.

My biggest CON with this PRSA is security of funds. If Davy and/or their nominee company were to go bust, you loose more or less everything. In theory there are safeguards ensuring your asserts are held separately, but if someone behaved fraudulently etc., your pension could go to nearly 0.
The standard life guarantee from the UK government is a lot stronger.
 
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Are there similar self-directed pension products for people taking money out of a previous company pension via buyout bond etc.?
 
@SPC100

I think there is .5% commission built into the .75% AMC, so it might be possible to get the product at an AMC of .25% via a discount execution only broker? If you do further research and confirm this please update the thread!

I did not realise that it was possible to get this product via an execution only broker; I thought it was only available through Davy's directly. I'll look into this and revert if I learn anything further.

My biggest CON with this PRSA is security of funds. If Davy and/or their nominee company were to go bust, you loose more or less everything. In theory there are safeguards ensuring your asserts are held separately, but if someone behaved fraudulently etc., your pension could go to nearly 0.
The standard life guarantee from the UK government is a lot stronger.

I presume you are referring to the Morrough case regarding the security of nominee accounts. Mind you, I presume that the same risk is present with any 'normal' pension provider in that the underlying investments are not in the name of the investor. Would you agree?

Are there any pensions available to Irish residents that are covered by the standard life guarantee from the UK government?

Thanks,

3CC.
 
Are there any pensions available to Irish residents that are covered by the standard life guarantee from the UK government?

Not sure if I'm interpreting your question correctly. Any Standard Life policy taken out in Ireland is automatically part of the UK compensation scheme, as Standard Life Ireland operates as a branch of the UK parent.

If your question is whether or not any other pension companies operating in Ireland also avail of the UK compensation scheme aside from Standard Life, the answer is no.
 
@SPC100
I presume you are referring to the Morrough case regarding the security of nominee accounts. Mind you, I presume that the same risk is present with any 'normal' pension provider in that the underlying investments are not in the name of the investor. Would you agree?

I don't have enough knowledge to answer this expertly or definitively. My layman understanding is that there are different regulatory requirement for Life insurance companies and stockbrokers, but in both cases, if the company went bust, given the precedent of the Morrough case, you could lose everything, and there are no government guarantees or insurance funds which will return your money.

As mentioned Standard Life is the only one I know of that has a strong guarantee via the UK government.

Maybe one should be operate a PRSA with two different companies to protect against this doomsday scenario....
 
This is a very good question and well timed as I have just agreed terms for a new PRSA contract.

The base cost is 0.5%pa for the PRSA based on a minimum fund size of €100,000. This is payable to a revenue appointed independent trustee.
There is a separate cost of 0.05%pa payable to an FSA regulated Stockbroker in London. The stockbrocker acts as independent custodian and charges all trades at a flat rate of €30 each excluding incidental costs like stamp duty on UK and Irish stocks.

The benefit of splitting out the trustee, custodian, fund management and advisory services into separate companies can be explained in three words: Custom House Capital.

So for example if I put in a global equity fund I can have over 10,000 stocks including emerging markets for a TER of 0.62%. Giving a total cost for the contract of 1.17%pa on an audited TER basis before advisory costs. On a like for like basis, the annual management charge of this fund is 0.42%pa and therefore total disclosed charge is actually only 0.97%pa. Note that this is one of the more expensive funds I use and typically bond funds are around 0.15% to 0.25%pa which would substantially reduce the cost of a balanced portfolio to more like 0.9%pa.

Of course this is something that doesn't happen in an off the shelf PRSA where you typically pay 1%pa for equity funds but also 1%pa for cash and bond funds.

This contract is only available for core pension investments and is comprised of institutional class index funds from Vanguard, Blackrock and Dimensional who between them manage over 5 trillion US$. This part is not self directed.

However we can also add on a self directed element for anyone wanting to run a Las Vegas account as part of their pension. This has a higher annual management charge of 1.25%pa on investments under €100,000 but again transactions are charged at a flat rate.

This part of the PRSA can include property,hedge funds,private equity, ETFs and individual securities.

So, a typical client might have a total pension pot of say €200,000 of which say €30k is in some illiquid product that they can't get out of even if they wanted to.

We can take in the whole lot, put €170k into a globally diversified portfolio of low cost funds appropriate to their willingness, ability and need to take investment risk and we can carve out the €30k into a separate plan.

Overall based on the earlier example of a 0.9%amc for 170k and 1.25% for the other part this would result in an overall plan charge of 0.9525%pa before advisory and trading costs.

So for anyone stuck owning illiquid assets they wish they had never purchased (custom house clients for example) this could be a good solution.

Equally anyone who wants to take a punt with a couple of grand of their pension fund can open a separate account specifically for that purpose and not have to expose their whole pension to the additional costs associated with full self-directed functionality. The minimum investment here would be €2000 when linked to a pension portfolio.

Finally I should mention that this contract is only available through my network of approved professional advisers and advisory fees are payable in all instances.


Hi Marc,

I see your reply here is based back in 2012 .. Do you have a list of fees for 2016?

Hi,

I had a self directed PRSA with Custom House Capital... Funds are with Interactive Brokers in the UK... I need to transfer to a new trustee ...

Is there a list somewhere here of the list of the competitive providers for self directed PRSAs ?

Thanks
Morgan
 
Davy Select charges 0.75% AMC for their execution-only PRSA. Funds (e.g. ETFs) that you invest in will charge their own AMCs on top of that, and their charges will vary. ETFs are not expensive though - the last one I looked at, a big S&P 500 tracker, charges 0.07% (for a total of 0.82% AMC for that investment). That particular account does not have a minimum amount of money that you need to invest.

There may be better options out there of course, though.
 
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