Bulgarian Property Exhibition

I'm thinking about ski-resort property in Bulgaria. Are your comments mostly related to the Black Sea resorts, or ski resorts too?

Anyone else any views on ski-apartment property market in Bulgaria?

auto320 said:
Having been in the business for a long time, I first looked at Bulgaria in the late 1990s following the collapse of the central bank and the Lev, and I have looked at it and visited it regularly since then. I never considered at any time getting involved there, despite very tempting offers from developers and agencies, and I have absolutely no regrets about that. In order to make money there, it would have been necessary for me to get involved in scamming the gullible, and I simply wouldn't go there -- there are plenty of ways to make money without preying on the innocent! I can still meet all the people I ever did business with and be happy that I treated them fairly; I could not do that if I had been involved in this market, particlarly the "guaranteed rental" scam.

I don't slate Bulgaria by the way, just the projects built and sold at grossly inflated prices to mostly first-time "investors" who believe sales talk and don't do the research. If you read my posts you will see that I have said that there are possible opportunities In Sofia for instance, if you know where to look. Bulgaria is a nice place with nice people, but that has nothing to do with investment.
Click to expand...
 
Do you want the honest truth or the sales pitch?

The truth is that you will never get ski apartments anywhere in the world for the prices that are available in Bansko. Around 40k for a studio no matter what company you buy through. If they look for more, tell them to sod off.

But there is only one major problem that has occured in the last few months.

All of the major tour operators have pulled out of Bansko.

I don't know why, but I think its because they didn't get the winter olympics. The plans are still there to extend the ski runs, which were meant to be the longest in the world, but to be honest, I don't know whether it's going ahead or not.

So its really a case of whether or not you just love to ski. You honestly cannot depend on the rental market. But it is affordable sking hols for the rest of us mere mortals, but its a question of how to get there now if the tour operators have legged it.

My place in Sunny Beach has gone up 50% in value since last December and I genuinely know this because I sold two next door to my complex, identical in size and facilities etc for 62k in August. (Yes, a positive note!)
 
There is a saying in property 'The day you buy is the day you sell'
This is not the case in Bulgaria. There is no second hand market and the market is awash with apartments and fairweather developers. I have a couple of friends who cant get what they paid 2 years ago for apartments in Sunny beach, a matter made worse by the fact they are having hell trying to rent them. The story told of making 50% profit is a first on me. It's common talk by real estate agents, as is the high yield figures - but the reality seems far different for the majority of people. Bulgaria is a long term investment if at all. Its is not like Spain in regards to weather. I was in Bulgaria last january and it was -5c on the coast. People will not retiring there so there will be no 'snow bird' market like the costas.
If you insist on Bulgarian coast then you must get frontline and look outside sunny beach and golden sands for lower prices.
Bulgaria is a fraught place overall as I experienced myself. I was buying in a complex called 'Laguna' and after making certain agreements with the developer which were thus reneged upon I asked for my deposit back. No chance, even though I had a clause covering me on the booking form. The solicitor I used was useless and wouldn't even return calls. On further advice I was told to forget about pursueing it as it would cost more than I'd receive anyway. Cost me €1500 plus 2 trips there.
At the moment its the wild east. But In a few years this may improve. In hindsight I am glad I didn't buy as I know from people there that prices have stagnated, especially on the coast. If in the future I was to look at Bulgaria I would look at Borovets as its a high ski resort close to the capital. Bankso is a big NO NO. It wasn't even considered for the 2014 Olympics (All sales agent talk) - Its a poor resort with paddy prices. If Paddy skied more he/she would know this.
Another myth to be carefull of is Ryanair plans to fly there. At the moment there are no plans by Ryanair to fly to Bulgaria, and the fact that the Irish government have not allowed Bulgarian workers to come here on EU entry is somewhat the nail in that coffin.
IF YOU CANT AFFORD TO TAKE THE FINANCIAL HIT, THEN BULGARIA IS TOO BIG AN UNKNOWN AT THE MOMENT. Don't get caught up in the hype, believe it or not there are better investments in Italy, Germany and France without all the corruption and cowboys and for near similiar money..
 
Agree completely Barryo, have been saying the same thing on this forum for months. The majority of what is being sold in Bulgaria on the coast and in the ski areas is designed to be marketed to mugs by very unscrupulous agencies who will tell you whatever you want to hear. The "winter olympics coming soon" and "ryanair are thinking of flying here next year" are common myths that are used to push reluctant buyers over the line. The other one of course is the old chestnut "I have bought one/two/three of them myself."

However no matter what informed advice is give by people who know the score, the old truism about "a fool and his money" still applies. The basis of the sales technique used to sell junk properties in Bulgaria (and in any other shaky market) is to prey on the greed of the buyer. Therefore any outlandish claim, the more way out the better, can be used to convince the buyer that the property represents a chance too good to be missed. Promise rental returns that are way above any kind of market reality; it doesn't matter, the buyer has swallowed the bait and you just have to reel him in.

I know this area well and I would advise people to avoid it like the plague! Plenty of agencies have no scruples about it though, and regardles of advice, buyers will believe what they want to believe.

If Fionita is in the business of selling in Sunny Beach, and she can get a 50% profit on something she bought a year ago, best advice is to dump it now and take her money. She will then join an exclusive little club of people who got their own money back in that market.
 
In Croatia it seems Ryanair are flying in everywhere, and by summer 2007 too! The same nonsense was peddled about Aer Lingus into Dubrovnik. While it will serve to help the local economy no doubt, just having a direct flight (or one with a stopover) is not going to cure all ills, but strangely the Irish buy it. For eg, you can get from Dublin to Split year round easier than from Dublin to Dubrovnik or Pula or Zadar, yet this backward mentality persists that because we have a couple of recognised carriers going in during tourist season or "for cheap" seems to make things better! It's worse we're getting!
 
For the record, Ryanair fly to Burgas airport in the summer months and I never heard of them flying to Bansko.

Bansko is a massive building site. I actually had clients out there last week - against my advice as I think they are flogging a dead horse. They came back agreeing with me and now its back to the drawing board for investment opportunites. Bansko has potential as there are no more building licences being issued, and well, you cant build another mountain. But if the tour operators have pulled out, how do you get there without major headaches and major travel costs?

I paid 42k for my apt on the edge of Sunny Beach last Dec. The prices were put up by the developer in the new year - increases every month like everywhere in the world.

Developers are putting their prices up 15-20% in the new year, whether the agents and buyers like it or not. Do the math.

Whether I decide to sell or not, I still have a sea view apt in a hotel complex and it costs sweet fa in repayments. The costas all started out the same, property selling for peanuts and hte fear of a massive over supply and price drops. Whilst the property market has slowed down in Spain, the prices are still going up. Rental is a problem but then if you have to depend on the rental to make your repayments, I always say think again before you spend your hard earned cash and have to struggle to make repayments and end up being forced to sell.

I have a concience and I don't want to see my clients in trouble or worried. I'm happy and so are my clients. No one in business can ask for more than that.
 
I know one developer who offered a 1 year guaranteed rent for a completed project last year in Sunny Beach.

The developer has now further secured a 3 year rental agreement with a major tour operator.

That's 4 years rental of the same complex.
 
You are right.

The company I sell with have a contract with one of the major tour operators.

Pick up any tour operator brochure and try to get hols booked for the last week in Jul and early aug in bulgaria. You will have a job getting that, esp from January. You can sit on a beach, get plastered drunk if you wish, and spend very little for 2 weeks in sunny beach. You wont get one week in Portugal for that and its expensive.

a 3 course meal in sunny beach for 7 people, and a very good hotel too, loads of wine and some champers (not exactly dp 75 but so what) cost 90 euro.

Thats dinner for 2 in a standard place in rainey ole Ireland!!!
 
Ryanir Air don't fly to Bourgas. Maybe they'll fly there next year but that's not confirmed.

Apartments in Sunny Beach are not going up in Price. There is a massive over supply there. Obviously if you are in the business you can sell easier at the inflated prices.

being booked out 2 weeks of the year is not something to brag about.
 
Last edited:
Fionita said:
I paid 42k for my apt on the edge of Sunny Beach last Dec. The prices were put up by the developer in the new year - increases every month like everywhere in the world.

Developers are putting their prices up 15-20% in the new year, whether the agents and buyers like it or not. Do the math.

Whether I decide to sell or not, I still have a sea view apt in a hotel complex and it costs sweet fa in repayments. The costas all started out the same, property selling for peanuts and hte fear of a massive over supply and price drops. Whilst the property market has slowed down in Spain, the prices are still going up.
Click to expand...

The issue is not that the costas all started out the same (they didn't in fact, the growth was slower and more driven by demand than marketing in the early years). Spain has practically year round good weather on the south/east coast, compared to the couple of months of summer on the Black Sea. I own a home in Spain so that I have somewhere to go on dark winter days when I get sick of the rain and the wind in Ireland, and most people in my experience buy in Spain for the same reason. Unlike Sunny Beach, I can be in Spain in a couple of hours on a direct flight. When the weather is good In Bulgaria in July and August, I like to be in Ireland where the summer is usually not too bad at that time.

Its not just about mis-selling on the rental front; a lot of the big companies are marketing Bulgarian coastal property as an alternative to the Spanish Mediterranean coast, when this is simply not true.

If you just want to have somewhere to sleep for a few weeks in Sunny Beach in July or August, try renting, there are loads of places available and supply will be improving all the time! Makes no sense to tie up the capital and pay management fees for personal use in such a short seaon. Invest the money in a real market somewhere and have something to show for it in ten years time.
 
People are saying what they WANT to believe. Ryanair do not fly to bourgas or anywhere else in Bulgaria. Ask Ryanair!! Bulgaria air fly from Dublin in the summer months but it's not a budget airline and costs as much as a package holiday to any where else and is not all that different to the service Balkan tours have supplied for years. As mentioned above there are more properties lying empty and unrented even after all kinds of promises made. LOOK! anything that gives rental guarantees is a gip as these are normaly for 1/2 years and ARE FACTORED INTO THE PRICE YOU ARE PAYING!! The developer doesn't care if they rent them or not. I challenged individuals to furnish any kind of rental agreements after these periods and I could be shown ZERO proof. People, Dont believe everything you are told as truths - it only makes liars out of you to people who are undecided on sites such as this. People are trying to talk up a market they may have got involved in because there may now be a little voice inside goint 'Oh ****'. I simply dont believe anybody has bought in the last 2 years and sold for an profit (after costs), before this possibly. in 10 years likely. But that time would show more profit investing otherwise.
I was in the bank that are my mortgage supplier in Ireland to meet with a financial advisor. He told me he bought in sunny beach on the recommendation of a friend. He is getting about 60% rental coverage on his mortgage excluding the ridiculous maintainance charges. He had planned to sell this year, but is been told by estate agents in Sunny beach it will take 8 to 10 years for him to sell at a profit. Some financial advisor he was. He didn't even go out there to check. That conservation ended there...

Again you cant compare Bulgaria to Spain. Its pleasant in the south of Spain in the winter - It's bloody freezing in Bulgaria, try renting that out. it's a 2 month season.

Talk is cheap - Ask people to prove any claims they make. Because they believe them doesn't make them true.
 
It doesn't really matter what any kind of informed opinion says on this forum, people will still queue up to buy this garbage. Every time a scam based on greed crops up, be it the three card trick or women empowering women, the moths still head straight for the flame. Sheer greed, and a blind belief that you can get money for nothing, make a potent combination that empties the wallets of people who can not always afford to lose it.

The sad thing, and something we tend to forget, is that much of the money heading for Sunny Beach or Bansko is borrowed by people on modest incomes, and will form part of their mortgages for the next twenty years. It is such a pity, when real investments can be found by a bit of research and clear thinking. These unfortunate punters could just as easily be building up real assets for themselves in real property markets, but instead they are led into this dead end by agents who just don't care about the grief that are going to give innocent people.
 
I completly agree, Glossy pictures and a good sales pitch will get salespeole the sale. They dont care about the punter. Buyers will believe what they want to hear. In my opinion property that does not cover all the costs while your holding it does not pay. Better with 5% captail growth with a property you can sell, is better than a property you cant sell with 15% growth
 
CapitalCCC said:
Maybe people are starting to realise that real estate investments belong in the real world too, I would imagine that if there was a Bulgarian Equity Investment Show the turnout would be pretty small too!
Click to expand...

More's the pity. The Bulgarian index has been the strongest in the entire world over the last five years and is up an incredible 1,626%!
 
I have a client who sings my praises and it brings me in business - I give him a discount for course for this .

The publication you linked to is Bulgarian. Question is how did they elicit this quote from a..Ahem! foreign exchange company. Think about it.. How do media outlets make money...?

If you dont come up with an answer you are very naive business wise. I suggest you go and pay for some objective advice if you can be sold this easily. It will be money well spent for you.
 
Barry O

I am far from naive. I was merely posting a link of interest to believers and non believers of what's going on in Bulgaria.

You are behind the times when you say that Ryanair fly nowhere in Bulgaria.

I've picked up that their flying into Plovdiv frim Germany and England from next August. Only a matter of time before their flying into Sofia and the coast.
 
Daddy said:
I've picked up that their flying into Plovdiv frim Germany and England from next August. Only a matter of time before their flying into Sofia and the coast.
Click to expand...

Why would they fly to the coast? It is a very seasonal market, not sustainable year round. Ryanair take a very businesslike view of any potential market before committing to it, but all their routes are year-round markets; they simply don't get into the areas that better suit charter outfits.

I agree that they probably have looked seriously at Sofia, but the decision of the Irish and UK governments to put up the barriers to movement of workers will have had a bearing on the timing of any move to that route.

By the way, the fact that Ryanair decide to fly somewhere doesn't have any bearing on the investment profitability of that location if the fundamentals are wrong!
 
Last edited:
Merely pointing out Barry O's comment when he said Ryanair fly nowhere into Bulgaria. D'ont know how far Plovdiv is from the coast but I reckon not a lot further than some of the places Ryanair fly to and bus onwards to destinations. Ryanair may yet fly to the coast for July and August as it appears they have been in discussions with authorities in Burgas but Sofia probably on the agenda first. I agree it's not any indicator for a property investment.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top