"Buffett the No. 1 enemy of Bitcoin"

[Brendan Burgess]

Google Financial Times Warren Buffett is bitcoin's "enemy number one" to read the full article



Peter Thiel, the libertarian tech investor, challenged some of the most powerful US financial figures on Thursday over their criticism of bitcoin, accusing them of trying to suppress what has become a powerful political movement.

Thiel, who made his name as an outspoken contrarian and early investor in Facebook, dismissed revered investor Warren Buffett as a “sociopathic grandpa from Omaha”. He also cast Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, and Larry Fink, head of BlackRock, as part of a “finance gerontocracy” that was looking to lock cryptocurrencies out of the mainstream.

...
By contrast, he claimed bitcoin, worth $830bn, had the potential to rival all the world’s gold, worth $13tn. With inflation rising and confidence in paper currencies declining, he also claimed that the value of bitcoin could match that of all public equities, which are currently worth $115tn, just as gold had matched equities at the end of the 1970s.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Wow! Bitcoin which makes nothing and produces no income is going to be worth as much as the combined value of all the publicly companies in the world who are responsible for producing most of our services, fuels, cars and other products.

And the audience cheered him on?

Brendan

 

[tecate]

Full article available here.

Thiel's keynote at last weeks Bitcoin 2022 in Miami ->

 

[24601]

Wow! Bitcoin which makes nothing and produces no income is going to be worth as much as the combined value of all the publicly companies in the world who are responsible for producing most of our services, fuels, cars and other products.

And the audience cheered him on?

Brendan

And they say it's not a cult.

 

[tecate]

And they say it's not a cult.

Yes, tar and feathering views held by others with sweeping degenerate claims is helpful in advancing this discussion and an understanding of bitcoin.
The views of Thiel as co-founder of Paypal and Palantir should be respected at the very least - even if you disagree with him. His contribution has been far more insightful than those who simply throw mud ( ala 'cult' jibes ). He also draws attention to an issue I've long suspected is prevalent on AAM ( not in all cases of course) - i.e. that there is very much a generational gap when it comes to those who have a complete understanding of bitcoin and those who don't.

As per Brendan's statement - covered many times already - bitcoin doesn't claim to produce a return. However, there is an opportunity for many in its coming of age and maturation. Gold doesn't produce a return either. Of course, we'll have reference made to its industrial use ( it was long since established as a store of value before such industrial uses came along and which account for only a few percentiles of its overall use). People will say but jewelry - but again, that's an extension of its store of value use case. It's a scarce metal - if it wasn't scarce, it wouldn't be regarded as a precious metal...just another metal. Gold gains most of its value as a store of value - and gathers dust in vaults around the world on that basis.

Other important developments as part of Bitcoin 2022...


- Shopify has integrated bitcoin payments into its platform (via bitcoin lightning network payments company, Strike ) - so any of the 1,000,000 businesses in 175 countries on its platform can turn on bitcoin payments within a couple of clicks.
- Integration of bitcoin into NCR's platform - again via Strike. NCR is the largest global point of sale provider.
- Integration of bitcoin into Blackhawk Network's platform - a prepaid payments provider.
- 2 more autonomous regions ( in Portugal & Honduras ) are adopting bitcoin with a view to it operating as legal tender.
- A Mexican senator outlined plans to bring legislation before the Mexican Senate - with a view towards making bitcoin legal tender in the country. Her initiative is being supported by Mexico's third richest man - Ricardo Salinas Pliego ( who holds 60% of his wealth in bitcoin ).


Meanwhile, algorithmic stablecoin network Terra has accumulated $1.4 billion of bitcoin since January, with a view towards building a $3 billion holding. The project's founder has said that he wants to build a $10 billion bitcoin position (to form part of Terra's reserves) eventually.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

And they say it's not a cult.

OMG
Cheers from the audience when the enemy's mugshots are shown on screen.
Cheers when it is announced that this is a political movement.
Cheers when ESG is denounced from the pulpit (that is a new one on me).
Cheers when the enemies are compared with the Chinese Communist Party.
Cheers when the word Youth is displayed (go figure)
Cheers when blockchain and erstwhile bitcoin hero Jamie Dimon are demonised (as with all cults it becomes impossible for outsiders to understand the theology).

I wonder what John Kelleher thinks when he sees that the cult has given up on bitcoin being a medium of exchange, leave that to ethereum.
Even given up on comparisons with Gold. It is the S&P 500 that they see as the alternative divinity challenging the cult.

 

[tecate]

@Duke of Marmalade - you're trying to sledge the views of someone who is responsible for $156 billion in market cap attributed to just 2 companies (and an investor in many more) - with a repetition of the 'cult' tar and feathering. Sorry, doesn't pass the sniff test. By all means disagree with him - he may well be wrong. Now if you were to engage with what he puts forward rather than sledge and label, there might just be some merit to that.

Here's a couple of questions for you...
Is ESG perfect...or is there an element of greenwashing to it? Is it a cyncial exercise? How about ESG as it has come into play re. bitcoin over the course of the past year? Was that criticism justified given that you said that you had no issue with bitcoin's energy use? Is it justified when you see solar schemes being enabled like this one - via Block/Blockstream/Tesla involvement? You seem to have an issue re. 'cheers' at the mention of ESG by Thiel - but I'm confused as to what that issue is as you see it.

As regards the CCP, I didn't know that you were a supporter so I'm very very sorry that Thiel ruffled yer feathers on that, comrade.

What issue is it you have with 'youth'? Do good ideas only come from the Sleepy Joe generation? I don't know what hangup you have there?

When precisely was Jamie Dimon an 'erstwhile bitcoin hero'? That's big news to me!

As regards the suggestion of bitcoin not being used on a transactional basis, are you simply covering your eyes and ears at mention of the biggest news coming out of that conference? (see my post above re Shopify, NCR, etc.).

 

[Brendan Burgess]

What issue is it you have with 'youth'?

Did you listen to Thiel's comments? He attacked older people

He also cast Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JPMorgan, and Larry Fink, head of BlackRock, as part of a “finance gerontocracy” that was looking to lock cryptocurrencies out of the mainstream.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@Duke of Marmalade - you're trying to sledge the views of someone who is responsible for $156 billion in market cap attributed to just 2 companies (and an investor in many more) - with a repetition of the 'cult' tar and feathering. Sorry, doesn't pass the sniff test. By all means disagree with him - he may well be wrong. Now if you were to engage with what he puts forward rather than sledge and label, there might just be some merit to that.

My disgust was not so much with the egotist strutting his stuff, but here was a crowd to put an Orange mob to shame, if you pardon my parochial reference.

Here's a couple of questions for you...
Is ESG perfect...or is there an element of greenwashing to it? Is it a cyncial exercise? How about ESG as it has come into play re. bitcoin over the course of the past year? Was that criticism justified given that you said that you had no issue with bitcoin's energy use? Is it justified when you see solar schemes being enabled like this one - via Block/Blockstream/Tesla involvement? You seem to have an issue re. 'cheers' at the mention of ESG by Thiel - but I'm confused as to what that issue is as you see it.

I had no idea that the cult had such an issue with ESG. To continue with the parochial analogy it was like hearing them shout "No Pope Here".

As regards the CCP, I didn't know that you were a supporter ...

I am surprised you are stooping to this level of misrepresentation.

What issue is it you have with 'youth'? Do good ideas only come from the Sleepy Joe generation? I don't know what hangup you have there?

It was the howls of "No Pope Here" when the term was shown on screen. I have no issue with Youth, some of my best friends and sons...

When precisely was Jamie Dimon an 'erstwhile bitcoin hero'? That's big news to me!

I seem to recall you hailing his conversion in opening up bitcoin to his customers. But I may be mixing you up with another cultist.

As regards the suggestion of bitcoin not being used on a transactional basis, are you simply covering your eyes and years at mention of the biggest news coming out of that conference? (see my post above re Shopify, NCR, etc.).

I didn't bother with your big news. And neither did Mr Thiel for it was he that dismissed bitcoin as losing the MOE war to Ethereum; I hadn't a clue that there was even a contest.

 

[tecate]

Did you listen to Thiel's comments? He attacked older people

Firstly, I'd long since listened to Thiel's keynote prior to your initial post on this thread.
That's very much the sweeping statement, Brendan. He didn't attack older people in general. He responded to fervent opposition to bitcoin coming from power brokers within conventional finance & investing - who display a clear institutional bias. With that, they don't want bitcoin to be in the picture.
Besides that, I tackled Duke on his criticism of attendees welcoming Thiels characterisation of the development of bitcoin being a youthful movement by contrast. What is wrong with that? The query stands...does the Duke think that its unreasonable that a younger generation are driving this? If so, why?

My disgust was not so much with the egotist strutting his stuff, but here was a crowd to put an Orange mob to shame, if you pardon my parochial reference.

No, I won't pardon any of that nonsense. The guy presents with a polar opposite opinion on this to you - so you're taking to framing it this way - but there's nothing in this statement that advances anyones understanding - other than you're fervently opposed ( which we knew already).

I had no idea that the cult had such an issue with ESG. To continue with the parochial analogy it was like hearing them shout "No Pope Here".

So you are listing items that represent your disgust without knowing what you're listing because of your blind opposition? That's progressive alright Duke.

For anyone that's interested, Blackrock CEO pressurised Musk last year into looking at the ESG consideration relative to bitcoin - ignoring the S and G elements and focusing on the E part only. Roll on a year and we have Musk's Tesla announcing a collaboration with Block & Blockstream on a solar-powered bitcoin mining farm.
You yourself Duke stated on a number of occasions that you have no bone to pick with bitcoin's energy usage - yet this still made your 'disgust' list ....out of convenience I'd assume.

I am surprised you are stooping to this level of misrepresentation.

Is that a yes on the CCP support then?

It was the howls of "No Pope Here" when the term was shown on screen. I have no issue with Youth, some of my best friends and sons...

Yes, of course - that's why people cheering in support of a younger generation bringing along bitcoin means you list that in disgust. Makes complete sense, right?

I seem to recall you hailing his conversion in opening up bitcoin to his customers. But I may be mixing you up with another cultist.

I'm unsure if I or someone else may have mentioned Dimon and his company having to do a u-turn where bitcoin is concerned. If I did point that out, you can be damn sure I didn't 'hail' it or represent Dimon as a bitcoin 'hero' as you put it. Far from it. It's like Thiel said - these guys don't want it in the picture. However, if a wider investing public does, they have no choice but to get involved with it in some way - and that's exactly what's happening in the case of the likes of JPMorgan/Dimon & Blackrock/Fink.

I didn't bother with your big news.

Quelle surprise! That would be a tad inconvenient to say the least.

And neither did Mr Thiel for it was he that dismissed bitcoin as losing the MOE war to Ethereum; I hadn't a clue that there was even a contest.

Where did he refer to bitcoin 'losing the MOE war' exactly? For the most part, Ethereum projects are looking to disintermediate when it comes to financial services. It doesn't get mentioned so much in terms of front-end means of exchange. There may be elements of cross-over but there is no contest.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

Thiel and Bitcoin....what could possibly go wrong?

 

[tecate]

Thiel and Bitcoin....what could possibly go wrong?

You clearly have something in mind - lets hear it.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Peter Thiel was verbally abusing critics of Bitcoin at the ‘Bitcoin 2022’ conference in Miami.

Peter Thiel is a card-carrying Republican and an avid Donald Trump supporter.

I wouldn’t trust the Lord’s Prayer from Peter Thiel’s mouth.

He is a cynical self-serving spoofer.

 

[tecate]

Peter Thiel was verbally abusing critics of Bitcoin at the ‘Bitcoin 2022’ conference in Miami.

Verbally abusing critics? He likened Dimon/Fink/Buffett to a finance gerontocracy. That sounds like an accurate assessment to me - without finding it to be 'verbal abuse'.

Peter Thiel is a card-carrying Republican and an avid Donald Trump supporter.

How is that relevant? Are you suggesting that being a Republican somehow 'cancels' him and his opinion? I'm not getting this - would it be better if he was a CCP supporter like Duke?
As regards Trump, personally, I think that he's an asshat, but despite that, I've come across plenty of otherwise intelligent people who would count themselves as supporters of his. On that basis, I'm not sure how consideration of his political leanings is helpful in this instance.

He is a cynical self-serving spoofer.

Is this Thiel you're talking about or Dimon, Fink or Buffett?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Where did he refer to bitcoin 'losing the MOE war' exactly?

That was my interpretation of a series of slides which analysed these things as between velocity and store of value. Visa and Gold would be the conventional representatives of the two extremes. He positioned Ethereum as the digital shadow of Visa and bitcoin as the shadow of Gold. The main point was to argue that Ethereum was currently the same market cap as Visa and so has no room for improvement whereas bitcoin is only 10% of Gold and has huge potential.*
Anyway I took the proxy comparisons of Visa/Gold to Eth/Btc to mean that the former was far superior as MOE. But I admit I am not a cultist and could be completely misinterpreting the Prophet. Could you please, my dear @tecate, explain to this gentile in gentile language what signs were the Prophet giving in this velocity/value parable?

*It is an interesting aside to see the cult splitting into Ethereum/Bitcoin just like Sunni/Shi'ite or Catholic/Protestant.

 

[T McGibney]

I'm old enough to remember Warren Buffet being dissed for saying that he was steering clear of the dotcom bubble because he didn't understand it.

I know little of Peter Theil but his takedown of Gawker was glorious. And then there's the fact that he supported the President who averted wars and energy price squeezes.

 

[tecate]

I wonder what John Kelleher thinks when he sees that the cult has given up on bitcoin being a medium of exchange, leave that to ethereum.

I have to admit that my first thought at the mention of JK by the Duke here was 'oh no, not again' - given the Duke's over-reliance on hanging his entire argument off one or two isolated thoughts of JK on the subject. But beyond that, I thought why not cut the Duke some slack here and have a look at JKs thoughts. Here's JKs article that the Duke has been depending on so heavily ->

Why Do Bitcoins Have Value?

Bitcoin is touted as a private, decentralized digital currency. But what gives the leading cryptocurrency value?

www.investopedia.com

Its been updated several times since first publication - presumably to keep it accurate and relevant. Gone is Kelleher's suggestion that bitcoin can't make it as a store of value without making it first as a means of exchange. Although Kelleher has added information on the advent of bitcoin as legal tender in El Salvador and marked it as 'very important'. There's another section added to the article which must have been inspired by the Duke himself. Here it is:

Why Do Some People Believe Bitcoins Are Worthless?​

Like any asset or thing of value, the price that people are willing to pay for Bitcoins is a socially-agreed upon level that is also based on supply and demand. Because Bitcoins are virtual, only existing within computer networks, some people have a hard time grasping that Bitcoins are scarce and that they have a cost of production. Because of this unwillingness to accept that digital traces can hold value in this way, they remain convinced that Bitcoins are worthless. Others who understand the Bitcoin system agree it is valuable.

 

[tecate]

I'm old enough to remember Warren Buffet being dissed for saying that he was steering clear of the dotcom bubble because he didn't understand it.

I wasn't aware that he had clarified this at the time. I only recall him addressing the subject of not having invested in the leading tech stocks after they were established (as its only in more recent times Buffett has held a position in any of them). It's a shame he hadn't taken the same approach with bitcoin and simply said that he's not touching it as he doesn't understand it rather than dissing it as he has done.

And then there's the fact that he supported the President who averted wars and energy price squeezes.

I still think Trump is an asshat although I'll admit this is very true.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@tecate I think I understand bitcoin better than JK thanks to Antonopolous and your good self. Take the following junior cert nonsense from JK

Another theory is that Bitcoin does have intrinsic value based on the marginal cost of producing one bitcoin. Mining for bitcoins involves a great deal of electricity, and this imposes a real cost on miners. According to economic theory, in a competitive market among producers all making the same product, the selling price of that product will tend towards its marginal cost of production. Empirical evidence has shown that the price of a bitcoin tends to follow the cost of production.

I think many people believe this. It is in fact the complete reverse, the marginal cost of getting the scheduled 6.25 coins per 10 mins tends towards what speculators are currently paying for them. Empirical evidence does not show that the price of bitcoin tends to follow its cost of production it shows that the cost of production tends to follow the price - lies, damn lies and...
I had noted that JK had dropped what he earlier stated was an absolute necessity for bitcoin making the grade - its acceptance as a medium of exchange (I have recorded his earlier faith). He now sees that his future in the cult relies on him dropping this article of faith which so patently points to bitcoin as a failure even against other sects such as Ethereum.

 

[tecate]

@Duke of Marmalade , It's truly a sight to behold the speed at which hero turns villain. JK got a shout out from you in more than 58 previous posts (apparently more as the AAM search facility can't handle the full listing). Will we not be seeing more references to John's work going forward? If John tunes in to these AAM funny pages whenever he has a bit of downtime, he should note that hell hath no fury like a Duke scorned.