Are separated divorced dads the biggest losers of budget 2014

orka said:
Would you have been happier if the allowance was halved for each person? So the overall impact would be the same but there would be no need for messy renegotiation of maintenance etc.?
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yes. That would be fair and gender neutral. Legislation that will negatively impact one gender far more than the other is sexist, even if it is not gender specific.
 
orka said:
You're pretty much agreeing with what I said - there's no requirement for the non-primary care giver to take the full net impact of this (net here meaning after reallocation of resources between the couple). Whether it's through mediation, the courts or by mutual agreement, the reality that the couple's combined resources are down by €200 per month will need to be reflected in revised maintenance agreements.

Would you have been happier if the allowance was halved for each person? So the overall impact would be the same but there would be no need for messy renegotiation of maintenance etc.?
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Yes - the Finance Bill should and could have split this credit. The couple are no longer a couple - so the idea that they will somehow split a tax credit is not a runner(ie our exwives dont really think like that!)
Even if they did its probably not sustainable as the Revenue have brought in emotive terms like primary carer and secondary carers.

So not only do we find ourselves down a packet every month - this disgraceful legislation has rebranded us as secondary carers! As though we dont care as much about our kids as the mothers!

Disgraceful!
 
supertramp said:
Yes - the Finance Bill should and could have split this credit. The couple are no longer a couple - so the idea that they will somehow split a tax credit is not a runner(ie our exwives dont really think like that!)
Even if they did its probably not sustainable as the Revenue have brought in emotive terms like primary carer and secondary carers.

So not only do we find ourselves down a packet every month - this disgraceful legislation has rebranded us as secondary carers! As though we dont care as much about our kids as the mothers!

Disgraceful!
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Men are second class citizens when it comes to family law issues. There is hardly a even a token veneer of equality in theory and none in practice.
 
orka said:
I don't understand your point. The legislation IS gender neutral - if the primary care giver is the father, he gets the allowance. The fact that courts (and very often couples themselves) decide that the mother is the primary care giver seems to be your issue - but that is independent of this legislation. The couple/courts decide the finances so there will probably be a reallocation of the impact of the change - there's no legislation or rules to say that the non-primary care giver must take the full net impact of this.
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Legislation that is framed in a gender neutral way but impacts disproportionately on one gender is sexist.

If legislation was introduced which negatively impacted on people who lived in caravans it would have a disproportionate impact on members of the travelling community, even if they were not specifically mentioned in that legislation.
There was a time in Northern Ireland when only property owners could vote in local elections. While not sectarian in theory it was in practice. You see the pattern?
 
I mailed a number of Ministers last week and received the following positive reply from one senior Minister who seemed to understand the injustice :

I have expressed concerns to my colleague Michael Noonan TD, that the change as now proposed could have the unintended consequence of excluding availability of the tax credit entirely to separated/single parent families, for example where the parent paying child support is not the primary carer and the parent who is does not have a taxable income. I understand that he is now considering appropriate amendments to the Finance Bill. I am passing on to him your communication to me for his information.

So we shall await the Finance Act..............
 
As per Irish Times today - the Finance Bill will be amended as follows:

The budget provision relating to the one-parent family tax credit is to be amended, Minister for Finance has said.
He told the Dáil yesterday that he had announced its abolition and replacement with a new single parent child carer credit in the budget and section 7 of the Finance Bill, introduced yesterday, provided for the change.
“Since the announcement was made, I have listened carefully to the views of deputies and will be bringing forward an amendment to this section at committee stage, which will allow the credit to be used by a non-primary carer in situations where the primary carer has no tax liability,” he added.

Despite this amendment I am not sure this will alleviate the situation for many fathers. Even where the mother has a tiny tax liability - the father will still be €2,490 worse off.

This massive drop in income will force many to renegotiate maintenance payment arrangements. What a disgraceful way to treat a minority group.
 
Am not sure that you have that right - I heard they are going to change the legislation to limit the impact of this change to those people abusing the system.
I dont think anyone will be worse off than €200 a month. Anyway we havent seen the final version of the finance bill.
 
kateball said:
Am not sure that you have that right - I heard they are going to change the legislation to limit the impact of this change to those people abusing the system.
I dont think anyone will be worse off than €200 a month. Anyway we havent seen the final version of the finance bill.
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That's my reading and hearing of it on the ground too.
 
Hi all, has there been any change to this, or am I still going to be down €50 a week from January?
 
the current version of the Bill allows the non-custodian parent to get the credit if the other parent agrees to relinquish it AND the child(ren) are with them for at least 100 days a year.
 
the current version of the Bill allows the non-custodian parent to get the credit if the other parent agrees to relinquish it AND the child(ren) are with them for at least 100 days a year -

In relation to this point - and from reading a lot of the posts, i would like to point out that not all ex-wives are out to get what they can and that some separations are amicable....!!
I am losing my job at end of December - so will be even more reliant in part on the v. small amt of maintenance that my ex. gives me - so in this situation why would i give him my extra credits, he wont give me €5 extra...... so there are two sides to all of this....in my case he refuses to pay our mortgage, so no sorry no negotiating for me.....
 
aoc said:
the current version of the Bill allows the non-custodian parent to get the credit if the other parent agrees to relinquish it AND the child(ren) are with them for at least 100 days a year -

In relation to this point - and from reading a lot of the posts, i would like to point out that not all ex-wives are out to get what they can and that some separations are amicable....!!
I am losing my job at end of December - so will be even more reliant in part on the v. small amt of maintenance that my ex. gives me - so in this situation why would i give him my extra credits, he wont give me €5 extra...... so there are two sides to all of this....in my case he refuses to pay our mortgage, so no sorry no negotiating for me.....
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And that there just typifies one the problems with this new tax credit. You're losing you're job, have no need for this credit, but refuse to give it to your ex. So it will be lost back to the govt. coffers. And yours is an amicable separation! Brilliant!
 
i heard today this is going through with the new amendment that isnt workable between estranged couples who manage their tax affairs separately.
Labour Party TDs will vote this through without question.They are more concerned about same sex marriage referendums than kids from separated families.
This will see hundreds of families €2500 net worse off - yet there were no tax increases in the Budget?
 
chrisboy said:
And that there just typifies one the problems with this new tax credit. You're losing you're job, have no need for this credit, but refuse to give it to your ex. So it will be lost back to the govt. coffers. And yours is an amicable separation! Brilliant!
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my ex has left me struggling to pay the entire mortgage and with a pittance of maintenance....... yes, i am losing my job, but if i get one in a short period of time but have given him the credit -where does that leave me!????
You have assumed that i will have no need for this credit....... and your attitude is exactly the reason why some women would rather let it waste than give it to an ex to be perfectly honest!
 
aoc said:
my ex has left me struggling to pay the entire mortgage and with a pittance of maintenance....... yes, i am losing my job, but if i get one in a short period of time but have given him the credit -where does that leave me!????
You have assumed that i will have no need for this credit....... and your attitude is exactly the reason why some women would rather let it waste than give it to an ex to be perfectly honest!
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My attitude has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you shoud think of your kids, you've lost your job, and you are also cutting your ex's income by 200 a month on the basis that you "might" get a job! The govt. and revenue are laughing at us! In reality, your case is exactly how i believe most cases will be, it wont actually be revenue who decides on the tax allowance, its now the mother! The figures next year are going to be very interesting. What percentage of fathers will get this allowance compared to the percentage of allowances that arent actually claimed because of the spite of the mother?
 
It absolutely does - i do not consider myself spiteful, but in wont be handing over my credits - yes I 'might' get a job as you put it, I will be trying damn hard to get one, I am the one left paying his debts!

What % of fathers pay little or nothing towards maintaining their kids - and these are
still the ones that will be looking for the credit!!!!!!!
 
simple solution

The fathers who are subject to legally enforced maintenance payments should continue to get the tax credit - thats only fair and reasonable. And very easy for the Revenue to administer as they have all the records already.

That would ensure we dont have to go back to our ex wives begging them for a tax credit = could you imagine the response!!!?

As of now we are looking at equivalent of a 5,000 drop in gross income -not a nice thought coming up to Xmas.....................
 
aoc said:
It absolutely does - i do not consider myself spiteful, but in wont be handing over my credits - yes I 'might' get a job as you put it, I will be trying damn hard to get one, I am the one left paying his debts!

What % of fathers pay little or nothing towards maintaining their kids - and these are
still the ones that will be looking for the credit!!!!!!!
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AOC
We should send your replies to the Minister of Finance to prove how unworkable this legislation is - I dont know of any separated couples who want to involve each other in their tax affairs again!
If Supertramps numbers are correct, why isnt uproar about this -no one can afford to take a 5000 drop in salary.
Will the Labour Party vote for this or has it already been passed?
 
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