Amazing that there's not more objection to LPT

C

Codogly

Registered User
Messages
182
When you look at it LPT is for more injust than the water charges and yet the water charges has got the limelight.
LPT in water terms would be like charging people a tax on water the have already purchased.
I can see future governments using this tax in the future to control the stock of property in this country. Increasing rates on elderly couples to move them out of their homes freeing up their home ( a family home near schools etc ) for the next generation.

The modern thinking see's a house as an asset not a HOME.
 
A house is an asset, as well as a home.

Local Property taxes have many advantages over other taxes.
 
Codogly said:
When you look at it LPT is for more injust than the water charges and yet the water charges has got the limelight.
LPT in water terms would be like charging people a tax on water the have already purchased.
I can see future governments using this tax in the future to control the stock of property in this country. Increasing rates on elderly couples to move them out of their homes freeing up their home ( a family home near schools etc ) for the next generation.
Click to expand...

They already do this down the line with inheritance taxes :(

I think a bigger scandal is the state of local democracy in this country. It is not democratic at all given the wide ranging powers exercised by city managers without regard to city councils - this is now doubly intolerable as it's a case of taxation without representation. If we're going to have LPT, we should have mayors.
 
Codogly said:
When you look at it LPT is for more injust than the water charges and yet the water charges has got the limelight.
LPT in water terms would be like charging people a tax on water the have already purchased.
I can see future governments using this tax in the future to control the stock of property in this country. Increasing rates on elderly couples to move them out of their homes freeing up their home ( a family home near schools etc ) for the next generation.

The modern thinking see's a house as an asset not a HOME.
Click to expand...

It's quite probable that any policy which set LPT on the basis of age would be unconstitutional. It would also be political suicide for any party since the elderly are more likely to vote then young people.
 
What is more incredible is the manner on which the LPT is charged, and the unfairness of it, particularly urban dwellers, Dublin in particular (ps I'm not a Dub! Not a City vs Country argument here).

Electricity rate - same unit charge throughout the country.
Gas - same unit charge throughout the country.
Road tax - same unit charge throughout the country.

Agree with the above approach. All other things being equal, reflecting a society, need to have equality, respect peoples choice in terms of where they live, etc, its fair that people pay similar rates for services and utilities.

Yet LPT is charged on a fundamentally different basis and in an unfair manner

Assume couple in same type of house, same income, same circumstances. Why should a couple pay a lot more in Dublin simply because they live in Dublin. LPT is a much bigger hit for most people than water charges, and particularly for Dubliners. Should be more made of it in the upcoming election.

PS - please don't give me the mansion tax argument, that is usually raised in this type of debate as a distraction. Let's consider the majority of the population please who live in ordinary houses.

My basic premise is - people in similar circumstances. living in a similar house, similar income, etc should pay the same LPT (as they do electricity rates, gas, car tax, etc, etc).

LPT should also consider other things, e.g. ability to pay, income levels, possibly number of children in the house, etc.
 
My big problem with LPT and it supprises me that more wasn't made of it at the time ... We have already or are currently paying for our houses and paying a big big price at that , so how can it be fair for a government to come along and then start taxing us on something we have already paid for ... tax water fair enough (we all need it and we should all contribute to the cost of providing it) ... but property in this case we have provided this ourselves at our own expense no help from government ... ironically the people who are exempt from LPT are the ones the government does have to fund houses for.
 
My mother sold her house this summer . When the solicitor was sorting everything out mum was hit with a LPT bill because the house sold for more then the LPT was registered for . Of course it did as it was a dwelling in Dublin !!!!! , and the prices have risen since 2013-2014 . we had to prove the house was valued at the same price as the band chosen on registration , We got the money back as we had to pay first and appeal after. We moved also this year and had our PPR valued which again had increased in value so as I know it will be sold in the near future I increased my band of LPT. I just filed my Tax return and was hit with surcharge for years 2013 & 2014 for non compliance of LPT !!!! Appeal letter gone in today !!!
 
Gerard123 said:
What is more incredible is the manner on which the LPT is charged, and the unfairness of it, particularly urban dwellers, Dublin in particular (ps I'm not a Dub! Not a City vs Country argument here).

Electricity rate - same unit charge throughout the country.
Gas - same unit charge throughout the country.
Road tax - same unit charge throughout the country.
Click to expand...

A new electricity connection in rural Ireland will cost you a lot more than a corresponding connection in an urban area. #justsaying ;)
 
A property would have a much lower value if it did not have access to the various services that we all fund through our taxes (roads, street lighting, policing, access to education and medical services, parks, libraries, etc.), whether or not we own any property. A property tax is therefore justifiable as a contribution to this community funding.

A large part of the reason that properties have a higher value in urban areas than in rural areas is the higher concentration of (publicly funded) services in urban areas.

Having said that, I certainly agree that model that the Government opted for (a self-assessed property tax that is collected centrally) is far from ideal. A site value tax, in my opinion, would have been a far better option for a number of reasons.

It will be interesting to see if any of the political parties re-visit this issue in the upcoming election.
 
T McGibney said:
A new electricity connection in rural Ireland will cost you a lot more than a corresponding connection in an urban area. #justsaying ;)
Click to expand...

Exactly my point, even though average cost is higher in a rural area, the Govt does not seek to penalise rural dwellers with a higher electricity charge. Same with Gas. Water - in my estate 150 houses, bet the average connection cost is much lower than most rural houses. Again same unit rate, which I agree with. General rule - services and utility costs are the same no matter where one lives.

As for roads, don't tell me that the average cost of the road network in Dublin per person is higher on average than the western seaboard. Should residents living there pay higher road tax? Of course not. There are 'swings and round abouts' on these costs. It is a fact that there is a large transfer of tax monies from Dublin to the regions.

So back to my main contention, why charge urban people higher LPT?

There is no logical reason other than the LPT is seen purely as a tax raising mechanism, and the only way the Govy can raise sufficient funds is to hit urban people harder, on the premise that it should be based on house values only. They are more concerned with the rural electorate??
 
Don't forget that Dublin couldn't exist without a rural road network. We've got to get our grub somehow!
 
Gerard123 said:
Should residents living there pay higher road tax? Of course not.
Click to expand...
Oddly enough, I'd support getting rid of road tax per se and surcharging fuel excise instead. Which would obviously entail rural drivers paying (much) more, but more importantly, society as a whole sharing the benefits of the efficiency.

So back to my main contention, why charge urban people higher LPT?
Click to expand...
Because their homes are worth more?
They are more concerned with the rural electorate??
Click to expand...
Hardly, given that the urban electorate is now more numerous than the rural one. Mayo used have 6 seats in the Dail but will only have 4 in the next Dail.
 
thedaddyman said:
It's quite probable that any policy which set LPT on the basis of age would be unconstitutional. It would also be political suicide for any party since the elderly are more likely to vote then young people.
Click to expand...

the elderly get special treatment when it comes to health insurance and the rest of us pay for it , if the elderly were to be somewhat penalised under
some aspect of the LPT system , it would be the first time that demographic ever got the less glamorous end of the stick

a home is an asset
 
Codogly said:
My big problem with LPT and it supprises me that more wasn't made of it at the time ... We have already or are currently paying for our houses and paying a big big price at that , so how can it be fair for a government to come along and then start taxing us on something we have already paid for ... tax water fair enough (we all need it and we should all contribute to the cost of providing it) ... but property in this case we have provided this ourselves at our own expense no help from government ... ironically the people who are exempt from LPT are the ones the government does have to fund houses for.
Click to expand...

could the same not be said about road tax , the goverment didnt hand us a car , im fully in favour of property tax and water charges , id like to see a flat income tax code brought in however which included corporations , i realise its not going to happen
 
galway_blow_in said:
a home is an asset
Click to expand...

Correction please -

A home without a loan is an asset.
A home in negative equity is a liability.

LPT makes no distinction for mortgages, negative equity, etc. At least if LPT was payable on the net house value, after mortgages, that would be a little more equitable than the current crude system for charging on gross values.
 
Gerard123 said:
Exactly my point, even though average cost is higher in a rural area, the Govt does not seek to penalise rural dwellers with a higher electricity charge. Same with Gas. Water - in my estate 150 houses, bet the average connection cost is much lower than most rural houses. Again same unit rate, which I agree with. General rule - services and utility costs are the same no matter where one lives.

As for roads, don't tell me that the average cost of the road network in Dublin per person is higher on average than the western seaboard. Should residents living there pay higher road tax? Of course not. There are 'swings and round abouts' on these costs. It is a fact that there is a large transfer of tax monies from Dublin to the regions.

So back to my main contention, why charge urban people higher LPT?

There is no logical reason other than the LPT is seen purely as a tax raising mechanism, and the only way the Govy can raise sufficient funds is to hit urban people harder, on the premise that it should be based on house values only. They are more concerned with the rural electorate??
Click to expand...
Would your point change if there was a higher rural electricity standing charge???
 
Given that the declared goal for water charges is conservation, that cannot be reconciled with charging a flat rate for water in all areas and all times... the price should be fluctuating based on water availability (by locality and by season) ... if the declared goal can be believed...
 
Gerard123 said:
Correction please -

A home without a loan is an asset.
A home in negative equity is a liability.

LPT makes no distinction for mortgages, negative equity, etc. At least if LPT was payable on the net house value, after mortgages, that would be a little more equitable than the current crude system for charging on gross values.
Click to expand...

No, the property is still an asset - it's the loan secured on the property that's the liability.
 
Thank you for the legalistic/accounting clarification.

I trust that most people got my meaning, i.e. charge LPT on the net value of the house after mortgage.

analogy - a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based
metaphor - a figure of speech that identifies something as being the same as some unrelated thing for rhetorical effect, thus highlighting the similarities between the two

:)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top