The R Word

[Humdinger]

Sorry, just kinda depressed at the state of debate in this country at the moment.[/quote]

The PS are part of the problem and part of the solution ... but only part. However it is a piece that is under our control supposedly. Oil, interest rates etc etc are not and are impacting all EU economies. We can only focus on the things we can control to make ourselves more competitive.

You may be depressed at the state of debate in the country .... a floating voter, I am more concerned at the quality of debate around the cabinet table. Vision, leadership and a bit of bottle to make some politically difficult decisions all look thin on the ground. I get nervous when I see a number of the faces in that illustrious group.

 

[Purple]

You may be depressed at the state of debate in the country .... a floating voter, I am more concerned at the quality of debate around the cabinet table. Vision, leadership and a bit of bottle to make some politically difficult decisions all look thin on the ground. I get nervous when I see a number of the faces in that illustrious group.

It doesn't matter who is sitting around the table. Our political structure will always give us weak government.

 

[CGorman]

Deleted

 

[television]

It doesn't matter who is sitting around the table. Our political structure will always give us weak government.

Would you care to elaborate on this? Are you talking about PR>

 

[joejoe]

Good constructive stuff. Tell that to the teachers nurses guards doctors ambulence drivers etc etc etc.

Let me be constructive, the teachers get paid for the 3 months or so summer break, then get paid additional moneys for marking and supervising exams, why dont they do it as per of their normal salary? There are loads of constructive things the public sector can do, but it may mean they have to contrabute more for less. How lightly is that to happen?

In the hospitals, get rid of the care aisistants and get the nurses to feed the patients and make the beds, they do it that way in most other european countries and make all the middle management work not just supervise.

Joejoe

 

[television]

Let me be constructive, the teachers get paid for the 3 months or so summer break, then get paid additional moneys for marking and supervising exams, why dont they do it as per of their normal salary? There are loads of constructive things the public sector can do, but it may mean they have to contrabute more for less. How lightly is that to happen?

In the hospitals, get rid of the care aisistants and get the nurses to feed the patients and make the beds, they do it that way in most other european countries and make all the middle management work not just supervise.

Joejoe

3 months off paid for all extra money. Teachings a breeze and highly paid. joejoe why dont you try it for a day.

joejoe if you are an ordinary joe/josephene soap like myself then why are you coming down so hard on your fellow worker. Public sector and private sectors joe soaps like me and you have no place arguing over who is less or more productive, we should be fighting for each others rights for fair pay and conditions. Dont be brainwashed by employers into thinking the public sector is the cause of the problems and the big bad guy. That suits employers as it plays one smuck of against the other, while the fat cat bosses cream off the top. While feeding into private sector workers feARS that if they dont behave and shut up and take a pay cut their jobs are heading to India. Direct your anger at getting united with your public sector collegue to fifght for decent pay and conditions for all workers.

 

[joejoe]

I never read so much cliched old fashioned outmoded nonsense in my life; the only thing missing was not calling him ' Comrade joejoe'. Public sector jobs are by and large for the greedy and the lazy, not the enlightened. They are exclusive. Not everyone can be lucky enough to get one. Imagine what would happen if everyone in the country worked for the public sector. The country would be decimated. We are not going to establish a socialist utopia with everyone having a fantastic job with fantastic pay, fantastic 3 month holidays plus fantastic wages and conditions as a small country going alone.
The reality is we are in competition with places like Singapore, Hong Kong, Israel etc for investment. Our public service needs to be competitive with the public services of other countries. End of story. Wake up. I find the entitlement mentality in the public sector to be disgusting. Why should someone in the public sector be entitled to any more than someone else with a family to feed in the private sector. Wheres the equality and brotherhood/sisterhood there ? I suspect its more a case of 'im allright jack' plus some convenient narrow minded self protecting self biased views.

The public workers do not have my support in the search for a pay rise, for inflationery reasons or not. It must be quite apparent that most of the public working in the private sector, or the unemployeed are in support of my views, not the socialist self protecting public sector, they dont sack each other because the trend it might set.

Comrade Joejoe

 

[room305]

Funny that this thread has ended up being a long rant about the public sector. Worse again, it would appear that some of those working in the public sector do not see any reason why they should accept a paycut!

For the record, as a public sector worker I would be willing to accept a 10 - 15% paycut. A pay freeze across the board should be a given, it shouldn't even be up for discussion.

The notion that we can tax "fat cat bosses" and continue to trundle along our merry way without any pain highlights the kind of trouble we're in. During the high taxation era of Haugheynomics we witnessed large scale tax evasion, high unemployment, mass emmigration and near bankruptcy. The last thing we want now is extra taxes.

When it comes to government spending, the government should mandate a 15% cut in spending for each department. Let the top brass in each department decide how they want to do it - cut pay, lay off staff, cut non-essential services. I worked for a firm that had to cut spending during the dot com collapse. The manager let go some of the more unproductive staff (some because they were new and lacked experience, others because they were lazy) and gave everyone remaining a ten percent pay rise to acknowledge that they now had a greater workload. If I remember correctly, things seemed to run smoother afterwards as some of the more "difficult" or "sensitive" staff members were let go. No harm to cut some deadwood every now and again. Public sector should be no different in this regard. Anyone engaging in a wildcat strike should be fired. If the unions don't like it they should be told in a no uncertain terms that they can accept the pain now, or expect to have the job functions of their members permanently privatised.

That said, it is not simply a matter of cutting the public sector wage bill and away we go Celtic Tiger Part Deux. The problems in the Irish economy run a lot deeper than that.

 

[television]

I never read so much cliched old fashioned outmoded nonsense in my life; the only thing missing was not calling him ' Comrade joejoe'.

You know all the rights you have in your job, holiday pay, the working time directive, Employment Appeal Tribunals, safty standards, redundency pay, protection of migrant workers, etc etc etc,

All won by the left or the trade union movement accross Europe. How quickely you would like to dismiss these things.

Public sector jobs are by and large for the greedy and the lazy, not the enlightened. They are exclusive. Not everyone can be lucky enough to get one. Imagine what would happen if everyone in the country worked for the public sector.

Why then does everyone not have one?? So many greedy and lazy people out there, like you aunt, sister, cousin, friends. Please you make it too easy for me with that kind of mindless diatribe.

The country would be decimated. We are not going to establish a socialist utopia with everyone having a fantastic job with fantastic pay, fantastic 3 month holidays plus fantastic wages and conditions as a small country going alone..

I have argued for public service reform. I believe in the value of having a thriving private sector which can generate wealth with minimun government interference. I believe we should be a low tax high skilled workforce and economy. I dont think that makes me Karl Marx.

The reality is we are in competition with places like Singapore, Hong Kong, Israel etc for investment. Our public service needs to be competitive with the public services of other countries.

According to a recent OECD report our public service does not come out too bad in terms of effeciency. Although it does point towards the need for reform. However a race to the bottom in terms of workers rights be they in the private or public sector does no one any good. Certain principals of equity and fairness need to be kept in mind. It does absolutly no worker any good when we are at each others thoats. Yes point out faults needs for improvements in the public sector but the over the top characterisation of PSWs is unnecessary.

End of story. Wake up. .

A tirade of mumbo jumbo does not make it end of story I am afraid.

I find the entitlement mentality in the public sector to be disgusting. Why should someone in the public sector be entitled to any more than someone else with a family to feed in the private sector. Wheres the equality and brotherhood/sisterhood there ? I suspect its more a case of 'im allright jack' plus some convenient narrow minded self protecting self biased views.

Workers in the all sectors accross the global village are intitled to fair terms and conditions and to be free from exploitation. All workerss should unite to ensure this is made a reality. This is not socialism it is common sence. Divided people are easily exploited. Ultimately there needs to be a realisation that mindless competition of global capatialism creates winners and loosers. Billions of exploited and empoverished people all over the globe who is going to fight for these peoples rights? Big business? Multinationals? The only thing stopping them from running an even greater muck over these people and countries is the last vestages of certain social and ethical principals which were won by European socialists since the 1st world war.

 

[room305]

Direct your anger at getting united with your public sector collegue to fifght for decent pay and conditions for all workers.

Sorry television but this is nothing but Joe Higgins fantasy-land nonsense.

By way of example, a close friend works in the manufacturing industry on not much above minimum wage (yes, we still have a few factories left!). This factory is tottering on the brink of closure. A few months ago it moved to only opening three days a week, after a period of which it shut for two weeks. Then the owner switched his product supply line slightly and things have improved. However, it is a difficult game - accepting orders but not wishing to risk having much capital tied up in inventory. Since their suppliers are in the same position the factory is practically working to order. Most of the staff believe it is only a matter of time before the factory will close. It's not possible for the staff to accept much of a wage cut (since it would be illegal) although I believe most of them are working extra "unclocked" hours when the orders/supplies come in.

Now tell me how your comrades and these workers can unite to fight for "decent pay and conditions for all workers"?

 

[television]

The notion that we can tax "fat cat bosses" and continue to trundle along our merry way without any pain highlights the kind of trouble we're in. During the high taxation era of Haugheynomics we witnessed large scale tax evasion, high unemployment, mass emmigration and near bankruptcy. The last thing we want now is extra taxes.

But the complete irony of what you are sayingg is that it was the PAYE smucks in the public/private sector that were paying 60% tax at the time while the fat cat bosses were sifting away the cash in off shore accounts.

When it comes to government spending, the government should mandate a 15% cut in spending for each department. Let the top brass in each department decide how they want to do it - cut pay, lay off staff, cut non-essential services.

That would mean overcrowded and delapadated schools, more old people on trollies, those on medical cardson huge waiting lists to see consultants, mental health services cut etc etc. You are happy with that?

I worked for a firm that had to cut spending during the dot com collapse. The manager let go some of the more unproductive staff (some because they were new and lacked experience, others because they were lazy) and gave everyone remaining a ten percent pay rise to acknowledge that they now had a greater workload. If I remember correctly, things seemed to run smoother afterwards as some of the more "difficult" or "sensitive" staff members were let go. No harm to cut some deadwood every now and again.

Thats what mindless speculation does.

Public sector should be no different in this regard. Anyone engaging in a wildcat strike should be fired. If the unions don't like it they should be told in a no uncertain terms that they can accept the pain now, or expect to have the job functions of their members permanently privatised.

So let business mindlessly exploit workers at the drop of a hat. Thats your solution? if you dont like being exploited and treated like dirt you know where the door is. That is the type of community you want your children living in?? Scary

That said, it is not simply a matter of cutting the public sector wage bill and away we go Celtic Tiger Part Deux. The problems in the Irish economy run a lot deeper than that.

Aggreed but people on here are falling for the IBEC spin. I hope I am talking to proper business people here and not just poor brainwashed smucks working for soemone else. I can handle business owners advocating exploitation and crap conditions, but ordinary workers, it saddens me.

 

[television]

Sorry television but this is nothing but Joe Higgins fantasy-land nonsense.

By way of example, a close friend works in the manufacturing industry on not much above minimum wage (yes, we still have a few factories left!). This factory is tottering on the brink of closure. A few months ago it moved to only opening three days a week, after a period of which it shut for two weeks. Then the owner switched his product supply line slightly and things have improved. However, it is a difficult game - accepting orders but not wishing to risk having much capital tied up in inventory. Since their suppliers are in the same position the factory is practically working to order. Most of the staff believe it is only a matter of time before the factory will close. It's not possible for the staff to accept much of a wage cut (since it would be illegal) although I believe most of them are working extra "unclocked" hours when the orders/supplies come in.

Now tell me how your comrades and these workers can unite to fight for "decent pay and conditions for all workers"?

Same kind of arguments were made during the industrial revolution as a means of exploiting workers. It required unity but eventually workers accross europe rallied and forced governments to improve workers conditions. You are not looking at this in a global context. Further exploitation will continue unless workers unite globally. I am not talking about a socialist Eutopia, just decent pay and condtions for people of all sectors

 

[diarmuidc]

Same kind of arguments were made during the industrial revolution as a means of exploiting workers. It required unity but eventually workers accross europe rallied and forced governments to improve workers conditions. You are not looking at this in a global context. Further exploitation will continue unless workers unite globally. I am not talking about a socialist Eutopia, just decent pay and condtions for people of all sectors

What century are you living in? Your rhetoric is dated and your anecdotes are not based on the current workplace.

You can take out the "fat cat bosses" confiscate ALL their assets and you will not even scratch the surface of Ireland's shortfall in tax. WAKE UP

 

[Purple]

Same kind of arguments were made during the industrial revolution as a means of exploiting workers. It required unity but eventually workers accross europe rallied and forced governments to improve workers conditions.

…and those rights were enshrined in law and the “class war” as it was, was won. The only group that didn’t realise this were the unions.

You are not looking at this in a global context. Further exploitation will continue unless workers unite globally. I am not talking about a socialist Eutopia, just decent pay and condtions for people of all sectors

Here’s an example; A good living wage in China is (say) €1 a day. This is enough to pay the bills, put the kids though school and put food on the table. In Ireland €10 an hour provides a lower standard of living in real terms. So will you, as a socialist, buy goods produced by the guy in Ireland for twenty times the price of the goods produced by the guy in China? Will you spend €2000 on the kids toys at Christmas (and will you ask everyone else to do the same)? If not then you may begin to understand how international trade and commerce works because at the moment it seems that you have no idea.
Your brand of socialism results in a true race to the bottom which deprives whole generations of hope and any realistic aspiration to a better life. The only reason countries in Southeast Asia have emerged as prosperous and stable political entities over the last 20-25 years is because Japanese and American companies pumped billions of dollars into their economies. Go and ask the tens of thousands of people working in Johor, the disc drive manufacturing capital of the world, if they would rather the big Japanese and US technology companies had stayed at home. Further afield go and ask the thousands of people working for Intel in Costa Rica if the big bad capitalist “Fat Cat” bosses should have stayed away. If you would like to save the air-fare I can tell you the answer; they would laugh in your face and tell you to open your eyes.

 

[jimbob1234]

this debate is still going on

can i ask television a question. when the words pay freezes are put around by the media does that mean a real pay freeze and no increments this year or does it mean that the PS will still get their increments but no new benchmarking

 

[Towger]

when the words pay freezes are put around by the media does that mean a real pay freeze and no increments this year or does it mean that the PS will still get their increments but no new benchmarking

This drives me mad every time I hear it. When RTE uses 'pay freeze', it means no Benchmarking (why can't benching making work in reverse as well). Standard length of service and promotion/grade increases still stand.

 

[diarmuidc]

Just out of clarity can we stop using PS as a acronym? PS could stand for private or public service so it just confuses this debate

 

[jimbob1234]

so they are still getting their increments. oh for god sake. they are so pathetic. they are getting rises in a recessions and they are still complaining?

 

[csirl]

If money is to be saved in the public sector it has to be targeted at the following:

1. The plethora of local authorities - most should be amalgamated.

2. The HSE - should be abolished.

3. Quangos - all the unecessary jobs for the boys agencies should be culled.

4. Outsourcing - a large proportion of public sector employment is form processing and call centre type work. There is no reason why permanent pensionable public servants should be doing this work - should be outsourced.

5. New Ideas - certain sectors of the public service need new ideas. The State should invest in bringing in senior managers with a track record of sucess to work in areas such as transport, health, education & justice - would be worth spending the extra money they may cost. [I have it from a reliable source that a few years ago, one of the sucessful zero tolerance people from NY expressed an interest in the vacant Garda Commissioner job, however, wasnt seriously considered as pay demand was in excess of usual rate. This would have been money well spent - missed opportunity].

 

[joe sod]

Same kind of arguments were made during the industrial revolution as a means of exploiting workers. It required unity but eventually workers accross europe rallied and forced governments to improve workers conditions. You are not looking at this in a global context. Further exploitation will continue unless workers unite globally. I am not talking about a socialist Eutopia, just decent pay and condtions for people of all sectors

What are you talking about russia 1917, do you want a rerun of the twentieth century. The communist revolution collapsed because people are naturally selfish and always want to earn more than their neighbour, is the public service prepared to take a pay cut to equalise their pay with every other worker, i doubt it