What will happen when/if the PService deal is rejected?

[Purple]

Well IMPACT have done a complete 360, they got clarifications and now the deal done in croker is suddenly not too bad for the health sector. Heaven help us IMPACT thinks bed closures, staff not been replaced..... budgets been slashed in public hospitals, beds on corridors, A&E overcrowding is ok... we're right back on the slippery slope back to the 80's....

I wonder how this will go down with all those in SIPTU and IMPACT who pay their union subs and not to mention the IMNO? Doran will be flipping....

This whole situation is like a group of children whose parents gave them loads of pocket money and promised them a trip to Disney Land next summer. Now one parent has lost their job and the other has taken a pay cut. The parents sit the kids down and explain that as mortgage rates have gone up and their income is down and they are spending 50% more than they earn the trip to Disney is off and pocket money will have to be cut.

Some of the kids are smart enough to realise that they have to face up to reality and just deal with the way the world is. The rest are lying on the floor kicking their legs in the air screaming “But it’s not fair! I want to go to Disneyland!!

IMPACT are just the latest child that has been coaxed off the floor, given a hug and, after about 100 attempts, have finally understood that screaming “But it’s not fair!” doesn’t change the reality that yes, life can be very unfair but understanding that is part of becoming a grown-up.

Poor ickle didums.

 

[Deiseblue]

The " But it's not Fair " concept or what I consider to be the usual cut and thrust of Union/Employer negotiations has post the Croke park agreements produced the following via clarifications and an LRC ruling :

1. The review of P S pensions will not now take place until at least 2014.

2. Teacher's holidays will remain unchanged.

3. The jobs for life for Impact members within the HSE is to continue.

Not a bad return for digging your heels in I would have thought ?

Into the equation I think we should factor in the question of the General Election in 2012 ( perhaps earlier ? ) , I can certainly see FF seeking to appease PS workers by ensuring same of the pay cuts are reversed.

 

[thedaras]

An example of what purple says about kids in Disneyland is given in the post above.
ie: NAH NA NA NA NAH.

 

[Deiseblue]

An example of what purple says about kids in Disneyland is given in the post above.
ie: NAH NA NA NA NAH.

I think you are going to have to clarify this statement for the adults on the site ?

Nah na na na nah is simply not a reply to the points I made .

 

[thedaras]

Using puples anonlogy of kids in Disneyland.. Maybe we didn't get to go to Disneyland in the USA but We got to go to Disneyland in Paris .Not a bad deal for digging your heels in,and hey look at what else we got,or Nah na na na nah.

 

[thedaras]

The " But it's not Fair " concept or what I consider to be the usual cut and thrust of Union/Employer negotiations has post the Croke park agreements produced the following via clarifications and an LRC ruling :

1. The review of P S pensions will not now take place until at least 2014.

2. Teacher's holidays will remain unchanged.

3. The jobs for life for Impact members within the HSE is to continue.

Not a bad return for digging your heels in I would have thought ?

Into the equation I think we should factor in the question of the General Election in 2012 ( perhaps earlier ? ) , I can certainly see FF seeking to appease PS workers by ensuring same of the pay cuts are reversed.

These are the terms that some of us on here have been saying the PS are so privileged to have and Im delighted that you are now saying its not a bad return,thats progress..

 

[Deiseblue]

These are the terms that some of us on here have been saying the PS are so privileged to have and Im delighted that you are now saying its not a bad return,thats progress..

These are simply part of the terms and condtions you are employed under when you join the PS and which the Unions are endeavouring to protect by whatever means they can in very difficult times.

Of course they are privileged to have such terms and conditions but that's what their employers signed up to.

The clarifications are important if the Government want to get this deal through which it's becoming increasingly obvious they are desperate to do.

I think we would be better served dealing with the realities of the situation rather than dealing in analogies which is really a facile technique.

 

[Deiseblue]

Using puples anonlogy of kids in Disneyland.. Maybe we didn't get to go to Disneyland in the USA but We got to go to Disneyland in Paris .Not a bad deal for digging your heels in,and hey look at what else we got,or Nah na na na nah.

Perhaps if we stuck to the actualities of the situation rather than resorting to analogies then we might be better served ?

 

[thedaras]

Do you mean analogies like this;

"Deiseblue;Quote"One could equally compare Public Sector Union members to a Catholic minority unfairly targeted by a despotic Government."..

Back to your post; the unions are protecting terms and conditions that are no longer sustainable!
This means they win the battle but lose the war.

Waterford crystal comes to mind ,a militant union fighting for workers rights and where are they now? The dole queue..

Greece also comes to mind, when people try to protect all their terms and conditions regardless of how the country is doing, the PS end up in a worse place.

 

[txirimiri]

What do you mean ,what planet and century?
Are you looking for the name of the place I worked in and the year?

My heart bleeds for anyone having to work 42 to 45 hours a week..and it bleeds even more profusely for those having to water a plant..

I'm not suggesting that working 42 hours a week or watering your own plants is a terrible hardship. I am responding to the consistent impression you give on this site that civil servants sit around counting the minutes that they work and fomenting revolution if they have to work a second over their contracted time or have a second shaved off their numerous daily tea breaks. That they refuse or are forbidden by their tyrannical union bosses to share workloads, work creatively and do stuff that needs to be done, irrespective if it is above or below their pay grade. That they can only ever work in the one Department from the minute they join til the minute they retire.

This fantasy civil service is so remote from the one I work in, I therefore asked the ironic question about planet and century.

By the by, for someone who lauds the fantastic creativity and fast-moving practicality of the private sector over the public, I find the automatic assumption that the number of weekly hours spent in the office is related to efficiency and productivity rather odd.

 

[Complainer]

This fantasy civil service is so remote from the one I work in, I therefore asked the ironic question about planet and century.

By the by, for someone who lauds the fantastic creativity and fast-moving practicality of the private sector over the public, I find the automatic assumption that the number of weekly hours spent in the office is related to efficiency and productivity rather odd.

Hear, hear.

 

[thedaras]

Point is ,You would not be allowed to water the office plants without having a union rep pull you up over it..Working any hours in any week would be a blessing for those who have lost their jobs.
You have failed to notice that I try not to go off topic therefore when a topic about the PS and their lack of work ethic does come up,I ,of course respond accordingly.
However ,when it comes to a thread discussing how wonderful some of them are, I also join in ,In fact ,I started a thread on that exact topic,once again ,you have obviously failed to notice this,perhaps you could try be a little less selective of the threads you view and you will see evidence of same!

To answer your ironic question, It certainly would appear that its about a different planet and century and there is where the irony is!

 

[thedaras]

This whole situation is like a group of children whose parents gave them loads of pocket money and promised them a trip to Disney Land next summer. Now one parent has lost their job and the other has taken a pay cut. The parents sit the kids down and explain that as mortgage rates have gone up and their income is down and they are spending 50% more than they earn the trip to Disney is off and pocket money will have to be cut.

Some of the kids are smart enough to realise that they have to face up to reality and just deal with the way the world is. The rest are lying on the floor kicking their legs in the air screaming “But it’s not fair! I want to go to Disneyland!!

IMPACT are just the latest child that has been coaxed off the floor, given a hug and, after about 100 attempts, have finally understood that screaming “But it’s not fair!” doesn’t change the reality that yes, life can be very unfair but understanding that is part of becoming a grown-up.

Poor ickle didums.

Hear, Hear Or should that be Listen ,listen

 

[annet]

Protestations

This whole debacle comes down to money, protecting public sector employment, wages and pensions etc. and its less to do with protecting services or their quality.

As for the IMNO they can add themselves to this equation because if they were really concerned about sector cuts, bed closures, waiting lists and persons waiting on trolley's, and how queue jumping is more to do with ability to pay rather than need and how this all impacts on service delivery, where was all their protestations in the public interest through all the years they received benchmarking and overinflated salaries etc? Are they saying these problems didnt exist!

 

[Deiseblue]

Do you mean analogies like this;

"Deiseblue;Quote"One could equally compare Public Sector Union members to a Catholic minority unfairly targeted by a despotic Government."..

Back to your post; the unions are protecting terms and conditions that are no longer sustainable!
This means they win the battle but lose the war.

Waterford crystal comes to mind ,a militant union fighting for workers rights and where are they now? The dole queue..

Greece also comes to mind, when people try to protect all their terms and conditions regardless of how the country is doing, the PS end up in a worse place.

You have taken my quote totally out of context .

That was simply my reply to what I considered to be an extraordinary analogy raised in that particular thread by another poster in an attempt to point out the facile nature of the technique.

Did you have to do much trawling to find that quote ?

In the context of the Waterford Glass it should also be borne in mind that the vast percentage of ex Glass Workers retired on large pensions or indeed on unparralled redundancy packages.

It is of course very sad that the employers totally underfunded the pension scheme and equally sad that consumer demand , appalling management and currency difficulties caused the demise of the Glass but hopefully the new facility in the Mall will employ many of the recently redundant satff , equally one is hopeful that Unite's action in taking the Government to the EC court will prove beneficial in terms of these worker's pensions.

 

[thedaras]

Certainly the teachers who were on strike during students leaving cert year,who were out on strike for some days,did not make up the missed classes to the students.

Where is the "we care for our students" in that scenario??

 

[Complainer]

Point is ,You would not be allowed to water the office plants without having a union rep pull you up over it.

This is just nonsense. You seem to be living in the 1970's.

This whole debacle comes down to money, protecting public sector employment, wages and pensions etc. and its less to do with protecting services or their quality.

As for the IMNO they can add themselves to this equation because if they were really concerned about sector cuts, bed closures, waiting lists and persons waiting on trolley's, and how queue jumping is more to do with ability to pay rather than need and how this all impacts on service delivery, where was all their protestations in the public interest through all the years they received benchmarking and overinflated salaries etc? Are they saying these problems didnt exist!

The INMO have been extremely vocal for many years about the many problems that remain in the health services today. If you didn't hear their protestations, perhaps that is because the mainstream media weren't too interested in these issues or because you didn't really want to listen to union protestations anyway.

 

[shnaek]

I am just wondering where the 6bn in cuts in the next 2 budgets are going to come from? What do ye think? The capital budget will suffer anyway - it always does. But even so, 6bn is a hell of a lot of money. And we are still borrowing 20bn a year just to keep still - right? The sums don't add up to me. There is going to have to be some serious budget wizardry straight out of Harry Potter to get this thing all worked out.

 

[thedaras]

You have taken my quote totally out of context .

That was simply my reply to what I considered to be an extraordinary analogy raised in that particular thread by another poster in an attempt to point out the facile nature of the technique.

Did you have to do much trawling to find that quote ?

In the context of the Waterford Glass it should also be borne in mind that the vast percentage of ex Glass Workers retired on large pensions or indeed on unparralled redundancy packages.

It is of course very sad that the employers totally underfunded the pension scheme and equally sad that consumer demand , appalling management and currency difficulties caused the demise of the Glass but hopefully the new facility in the Mall will employ many of the recently redundant satff , equally one is hopeful that Unite's action in taking the Government to the EC court will prove beneficial in terms of these worker's pensions.

Ok, so an analogy by one poster is facile but not when another analogy is used to point out how facile they are..Right ,,,got it..

Unparalleled,I don't think so,have you heard of the redundancy packages to the PS?

You fail to mention that if conditions actually were as you say, the case in Waterford crystal, then most certaintly ,the unions making unreasonable demands would have put the nail in the coffin.

The older workers ,who perhaps are in a better position to be the most militant,and in a better postion to dig in their heels have not taken into account as they leave with their "unparralled redundancy packages" ,that although their jobs are gone,there would have been others who could have contuined to work there,if the company had still exsisted that is.

It was the same with SR Technics ,older workers who had morgages paid , children who are finished college,leaving with a good package etc are in a much better position ,and are therefore not as bothered if there is a job left for those coming after them..
To sum up, life is not all about what one person/group can get for themselves, to the detriment of all others..

 

[thedaras]

Today, 02:50 PM
Complainer
Frequent Poster

Location: South Dublin
Posts: 2,842

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedaras
Point is ,You would not be allowed to water the office plants without having a union rep pull you up over it.
Complainer;"This is just nonsense. You seem to be living in the 1970's."
Quote

Saying it is nonsense is implying its an untruth? Is this what you are saying?
There are many,many examples of this in the PS. FACT. At the risk of repeating myself ,I was that soldier.
I know of a worker who is employed by the PS,who tried to put curtains around a bed when they had fallen down,he was told ,by the union rep ,that he was not to do this as it was not his job! There was an old woman in the bed...You can say as many times as you like that it is nonsense,I know for a fact that this was/has/is happened/ing