With what does Bankrupt AIB plan to pay staff more than statutory redundancy?

onq said:

That's a straw man argument Purple.
You're batting back points Bronte didn't raise.
Bronte is quite right in what she posted, and while many of the comments you made appear to be as clever and self-supporting as a good sports bra some of them seem to fall apart under investigation.

Let's look at just one.

You are comparing apples and oranges when you're talking about nurses pay here and elsewhere. You have made no comparative study of the health services, pension and social service entitlements here and abroad, which go some way to take money out of people's pockets and into the state's so it can provide services in ill health and in later life. Here we're supposed to look after these through private means and we haven't or cannot, partly through the situation we're in with mortgages and negative equity.

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Details on total healthcare spending here http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1122760&postcount=1
We have a choice between spending the money on services for patients or spending it on wages for the staff providing those services. There has never been a shortage of any medical staff for any area in this country so there is no argument that high wages are or were required to attract or retain staff. There is no distinction between what we pay directly or indirectly through our taxes; the net spend and the net cost is still the same nationally.

There are plenty of threads on this site highlighting the difference between what social services we get and what other EU countries get. In general we spend more and get less. The main reason for this is we spend more per hour for staff than other countries.

Greece is the only country in the OECD with a shorter school year (total hours worked) yet we pay far more for staff than most other OECD countries. The net result of this is larger classes and less support services. Given the choice between providing services for children and providing high wages for teachers we chose the latter. If that’s what we want that’s fine but people should stop complaining about outcomes from decisions they have made, i.e. teachers complaining about class sizes and lack of support services because they took a larger slice of the education budget.

onq said:

I have no problem with asking medical staff to work longer hours, but only in the context of everyone being asked to do so, particularly the directors of financial institutions and companies who seem able to rotate around golden circles on the pretext of bringing grey headed wisdom to 12 and more different companies each year but who in fact, through their incompetence and lack of diligent attention to their duties were the authors of our economic deconstruction.

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I’d sooner see medical staff working a standard 39 hour week and the powers that be charging some or most of the directors of our financial institutions with reckless trading.

onq said:

The perception is that such as these are not suffering at all in the present climate, which has the rest of us on interest only mortgages, suspending our pension payments, cancelling our health insurance and struggling to pay back our loans.

This occurs because of a dearth of profitable work, and where there is work, a plethora of clients who walk away from their debts. Ireland today is rife with real-world sharp practice situations and lies, so please don't bother painting the monied élite as anything other than the self-serving money grubbers that they are.

ONQ.

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Who are the moneyed élite? Are all people with money part of this group? (are the 5% who pay 50% of income tax part of it?)

Purple said:

Greece is the only country in the OECD with a shorter school year (total hours worked) yet we pay far more for staff than most other OECD countries. The net result of this is larger classes and less support services. Given the choice between providing services for children and providing high wages for teachers we chose the latter. If that’s what we want that’s fine but people should stop complaining about outcomes from decisions they have made, i.e. teachers complaining about class sizes and lack of support services because they took a larger slice of the education budget.

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"There's lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Here is a baseline study:

http://download.ei-ie.org/Docs/WebDepot/Teachers Pay 2008 Report.pdf

Page 11, Par 1.

"The comparative overview of levels of personal income tax for starting and end-of-career teachers (cf. F6) indicates that deductions from gross wages are highest in Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Hungary, Ireland, and Sweden. The lowest levels of personal income tax are reported for starting-career teachers in Greece (5.16 per cent) and Cyprus (7 per cent) and for both categories of teachers in Albania (i.e. 10 per cent), Serbia (12 per cent), Russia (13 per cent), the Czech Republic (15 per cent), Montenegro (15 per cent) and Slovakia (19 per cent). In contrast to the levels of social security contributions where no obvious East–West distinction is observed (between the countries for which data is available), personal income tax levels tend to be lower in the new EU member states and in particular in some of the Eastern European non-EU member states, than Western European EU member states."

If you look at Table F.7 on P. 12 you'll see that Ireland is the second highest Teaching hours worked in Primary Schools with 28 per week, with only Sweden listed as ahead of us and that's because they reported working hours instead of teaching hours. Anyone knows that teachers put in far more than their teaching hours at Primary and Secondary level.

If you look at Table F.8 Secondary Teaching hours, Ireland is 10th out of 31 countries and is in among a broad swath of countries at around 22 hours a week. Only England & Wales, Germany Georgia and Sweden put in more hours and even then its only around 25 per week, with the previous comment in the paragraph above still applying to Sweden.

I'm questioning your sources, derivative comments and analysis, Purple.

ONQ.

Purple said:

Who are the moneyed élite? Are all people with money part of this group? (are the 5% who pay 50% of income tax part of it?)

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At least one of them is a former client of mine who has tax exile status.

Is this mythical 5% you post about the remnant who for some reason still pay tax here? Because most of the very rich don't seem to.

ONQ.

Purple said:

I’d sooner see medical staff working a standard 39 hour week and the powers that be charging some or most of the directors of our financial institutions with reckless trading.

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There is no relation between medical staff working 39 hours and reckless trading - this isn't even a straw man argument.

Is "reckless trading" even a charge on the statute books?
If not then this sentence says nothing at all.

ONQ.

Purple said:

There are plenty of threads on this site highlighting the difference between what social services we get and what other EU countries get. In general we spend more and get less. The main reason for this is we spend more per hour for staff than other countries.

Click to expand...

I've just dissected one of your posts Purple.

Just because the threads are on AAM doesn't mean they make any more sense than your post.

ONQ.

onq said:

"There's lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Here is a baseline study:

http://download.ei-ie.org/Docs/WebDepot/Teachers Pay 2008 Report.pdf

Page 11, Par 1.

"The comparative overview of levels of personal income tax for starting and end-of-career teachers (cf. F6) indicates that deductions from gross wages are highest in Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Hungary, Ireland, and Sweden. The lowest levels of personal income tax are reported for starting-career teachers in Greece (5.16 per cent) and Cyprus (7 per cent) and for both categories of teachers in Albania (i.e. 10 per cent), Serbia (12 per cent), Russia (13 per cent), the Czech Republic (15 per cent), Montenegro (15 per cent) and Slovakia (19 per cent). In contrast to the levels of social security contributions where no obvious East–West distinction is observed (between the countries for which data is available), personal income tax levels tend to be lower in the new EU member states and in particular in some of the Eastern European non-EU member states, than Western European EU member states."

If you look at Table F.7 on P. 12 you'll see that Ireland is the second highest Teaching hours worked in Primary Schools with 28 per week, with only Sweden listed as ahead of us and that's because they reported working hours instead of teaching hours. Anyone knows that teachers put in far more than their teaching hours at Primary and Secondary level.

If you look at Table F.8 Secondary Teaching hours, Ireland is 10th out of 31 countries and is in among a broad swath of countries at around 22 hours a week. Only England & Wales, Germany Georgia and Sweden put in more hours and even then its only around 25 per week, with the previous comment in the paragraph above still applying to Sweden.

I'm questioning your sources, derivative comments and analysis, Purple.

ONQ.

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I wrote about total hours woked per year. You then countered with a post about total hours per week. Strawman?

onq said:

There is no relation between medical staff working 39 hours and reckless trading - this isn't even a straw man argument.

Click to expand...

I agree, but it was you that made the connection when you said;
"I have no problem with asking medical staff to work longer hours, but only in the context of everyone being asked to do so, particularly the directors of financial institutions and companies who seem able to rotate around golden circles on the pretext of bringing grey headed wisdom to 12 and more different companies each year but who in fact, through their incompetence and lack of diligent attention to their duties were the authors of our economic deconstruction."

onq said:

Is "reckless trading" even a charge on the statute books?.

Click to expand...

Yes.

onq said:

I've just dissected one of your posts Purple.

Click to expand...

That's a matter of opinion.

Purple said:

I wrote about total hours woked per year. You then countered with a post about total hours per week. Strawman?

Click to expand...

Relevance?

Purple said:

That's a matter of opinion.

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No, thats the lack of a relevant rebuttal on your part.

The study I posted was learned and wide ranging and assessed teaching, working from a broad comparative base.
I request you to post anything remotely as authoritative and wide ranging that supports your position.

Post anything that shows a logical relation - as opposed to your assertion - that mores hours worked per year per teacher equates to smaller classroom sizes.
And while you're at it, show how said teachers working more hours can engage in the necessary course preparation and research that has put Irish education on the front line in the world in real terms.

Or how these now overworked and under-pressure teachers can deliver tuition that assures the same quality of education to smaller classes.
I mean, a "quantity over quality" argument in an educational arena?
Come on!

I'm beginning to think you've confused total hours with teaching hours somewhere back along the line.

Worse I think you've taken stated hours put out by some think tank or department and assumed they bear a relationship to the kind of time teachers put into class preparation and extra-curricular activity supporting their pupils, whether it be games, educational tours, or whatever.
I'm beginning to think that calculating minds like yours are being used to inform government policy and as usual, the quality we have in our educational system at the moment will be sacrificed to some accountants idea of the bottom line.

ONQ.

onq said:

"There's lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Here is a baseline study:

http://download.ei-ie.org/Docs/WebDepot/Teachers Pay 2008 Report.pdf

Page 11, Par 1.

"The comparative overview of levels of personal income tax for starting and end-of-career teachers (cf. F6) indicates that deductions from gross wages are highest in Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Hungary, Ireland, and Sweden. The lowest levels of personal income tax are reported for starting-career teachers in Greece (5.16 per cent) and Cyprus (7 per cent) and for both categories of teachers in Albania (i.e. 10 per cent), Serbia (12 per cent), Russia (13 per cent), the Czech Republic (15 per cent), Montenegro (15 per cent) and Slovakia (19 per cent). In contrast to the levels of social security contributions where no obvious East–West distinction is observed (between the countries for which data is available), personal income tax levels tend to be lower in the new EU member states and in particular in some of the Eastern European non-EU member states, than Western European EU member states."

If you look at Table F.7 on P. 12 you'll see that Ireland is the second highest Teaching hours worked in Primary Schools with 28 per week, with only Sweden listed as ahead of us and that's because they reported working hours instead of teaching hours. Anyone knows that teachers put in far more than their teaching hours at Primary and Secondary level.

If you look at Table F.8 Secondary Teaching hours, Ireland is 10th out of 31 countries and is in among a broad swath of countries at around 22 hours a week. Only England & Wales, Germany Georgia and Sweden put in more hours and even then its only around 25 per week, with the previous comment in the paragraph above still applying to Sweden.

I'm questioning your sources, derivative comments and analysis, Purple.

ONQ.

Click to expand...

ONQ - your posts on this particular matter have been uniformly excellent.

This post however is for me is particularly eye opening.

Thank you.

onq said:

Relevance?

Click to expand...

It is hugely relevant. Let's take the numbers you posted earlier for secondary schools in Europe. According to those figures Irish secondary teachers worked an average of 22 hour per week, while German teachers work 25. The annual breakdown would be as follows.

Ireland: 12 weeks summer holidays + two 1 week mid term breaks + 2 weeks Christmas break + 1 week Easter break = 17 weeks holidays or 35 weeks worked = 770 hours

Germany: 6 weeks summer break + 2 weeks autumn break + 2 weeks Christmas break + 2 weeks Easter break = 12 weeks holidays = 40 weeks worked = 1000 hours

That's a huge difference; it is very relevant that German teachers work 30% more per year.

Mpsox said:

No unionised bank in Ireland has ever had large scale compulsary redundancies. I believe there is a fear of significant industrial action if AIB went down this route or offered a low package which potentially could result in a national bank strike.

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Imagine that a bank strike. Still doesn't answer the question, with what money can the bank pay above statutory. Why are bank staff any different to staff in other companies that go bust? Can taxpayers money being pumped into the banks be used to pay more than statutory redundancy?

Bronte said:

Imagine that a bank strike. Still doesn't answer the question, with what money can the bank pay above statutory. Why are bank staff any different to staff in other companies that go bust? Can taxpayers money being pumped into the banks be used to pay more than statutory redundancy?

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I work in banking and I agree with you. If bank makes people redundant to cut costs while profitable, they should pay redundancy packages but when they are bust, they are no different to any other company. Same goes for public sector redundancies as well.

Sunny said:

Ok, slightly off topic but ..

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Off topic posts will be deleted. If you want to discuss teachers then start your own thread and dont hijack this thread which is about how management at distressed AIB propose to pay more than statutory redundancey to their staff.

aj
(moderator)

ajapale said:

Off topic posts will be deleted. If you want to discuss teachers then start your own thread and dont hijack this thread which is about how management at distressed AIB propose to pay more than statutory redundancey to their staff.

aj
(moderator)

Click to expand...

The thread moved onto teachers long before I introduced it. Check all the posts above that you didn't delete