Wills and solicitor withholding assets

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Baffling

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I am the executor and a beneficiary of a will which has been probated since June 2023.

There are three other beneficiaries. We were left property, mainly land, and there was cash in the residue which was willed to myself. There is an outstanding nursing home loan to be paid so three of us decided to sell the land off probate and not have it vested in our names.

The sale of the land will more than clear the loan.I have now sold my portion of land and am obliged to clear the loan from the proceeds. I am OK with this as the other beneficiaries have agreed to pay their portions of the loan on a pro rata basis when they sell their land.

What I am not OK with is this. Having asked my solicitor if I could access the remaining monies after loan has been paid I was told I have to wait until will is finalised and solicitor knows what their fee will be. There are enough assets now in the solicitors account to cover his fee and there are no remaining debts to be paid.

One other thing. I have already paid the inheritance tax.I had to borrow this money from a relative and need to repay him. That was embarrassing enough. I will suffer more embarrassment if I do not have the resources to pay the capital whatever other tax in August. Does the solicitor have a legal basis for withholding my assets and if so what is this legal basis?
 
Yes, it is prudent of the solicitor to withhold paying the beneficiaries if there are outstanding debts to be paid. However, you as executor would have a good idea of roughly his fees as you both would have agreed this at the start so you as executor can instruct the solicitor to to distribute the assets less outstanding debts. As far as I can follow there are two debts outstanding

Nursing home loan
Solicitor fees

While you may have an estimate of the nursing home loan it may not be accurate so perhaps the solicitor is being prudent.

For example if there are €200K cash, possibly €100K nursing home fee, €12K solicitor fee, I would as the solicitor not be comfortable paying out €70K to beneficiaries, maybe I would suggest €20K. But this is a discussion you as executor can have with the solicitor. Post some rough figures. What other beneficiaries do outside the will/probate business would have no bearing on your and the solicitors discussions.
 
What on earth were you doing prepaying Capital Acquisitions Tax on your share of a residue that you had neither received nor had its amount determined, when the liability date for payment of this tax follows the date on which the relevant amount is determined?
 
This is Baffling.

Baffling said:
three of us decided to sell the land off probate and not have it vested in our names.
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Baffling said:
.I have now sold my portion of land
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Was it one piece of land left to all three of you, but the Executor sold the land before transferring it to the three of you.
Was it three pieces of land that you all agreed for some reason to individually sell.

Based on the confusion of your post, I suspect that the solicitor has been kept very busy explaining things.

Brendan
 
Clamball said:
Yes, it is prudent of the solicitor to withhold paying the beneficiaries if there are outstanding debts to be paid. However, you as executor would have a good idea of roughly his fees as you both would have agreed this at the start so you as executor can instruct the solicitor to to distribute the assets less outstanding debts. As far as I can follow there are two debts outstanding

Nursing home loan
Solicitor fees

While you may have an estimate of the nursing home loan it may not be accurate so perhaps the solicitor is being prudent.

For example if there are €200K cash, possibly €100K nursing home fee, €12K solicitor fee, I would as the solicitor not be comfortable paying out €70K to beneficiaries, maybe I would suggest €20K. But this is a discussion you as executor can have with the solicitor. Post some rough figures. What other beneficiaries do outside the will/probate business would have no bearing on your and the solicitors discussions.
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When the proceeds of my sale are lodged into solicitors account there will be 280000.00 in the account. The Nursing home loan has a final figure of 112500.00. This has been known for a long time. Interest on the loan will be 17000.00. I am appealing the interest. Money should arrive into the account next week as sales have been finalised After paying the principal sum of the loan there will be 167500.00 left in the account. I intend to leave 55000.00 in the account to cover the interest if it has to be paid and cover the solicitors fees. Soticitor has already received 7500.00 toward his fees. This occurred after probate when banks lodged monies.
 
T McGibney said:
What on earth were you doing prepaying Capital Acquisitions Tax on your share of a residue that you had neither received nor had its amount determined, when the liability date for payment of this tax follows the date on which the relevant amount is determined?
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My accountant was in contact with revenue. They said that 24200.00 had to be paid by middle of Nov 2023 or else interest would accrue. I thought this very unfair but nonetheless borrowed the money and paid the tax as sales on the land were already agreed.
DannyBoyD said:
I'm with @T McGibney here; you've got this entire thing backwards.
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Please elaborate.
Brendan Burgess said:
This is Baffling.





Was it one piece of land left to all three of you, but the Executor sold the land before transferring it to the three of you.
Was it three pieces of land that you all agreed for some reason to individually sell.

Based on the confusion of your post, I suspect that the solicitor has been kept very busy explaining things.

Brendan
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Four beneficiaries, including myself, received 14 parcels of land. I received two parcels of land which I have now sold. Two of the other beneficiaries are in the process of selling their portions of land. A barristers opinion stated the the nursing load should be paid as the monies arrived into the account.As my proceeds will be the first monies to be lodged the HSe or revenue who are the collectors of the debt will grab this money. The land was very scattered and no two fields were adjacent. That the way it is sometimes in my neck of the woods.One beneficiary has decided not to sell his portion and has invested the land in his name.
DannyBoyD said:
I'm with @T McGibney here; you've got this entire thing backwards.
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Please elaborate.
 
I don't understand how you sold a property and paid tax on it when it was not in your name.

If it sold when still in the possession of the 'estate of the late Jane Johnson'; then none of the proceeds comes to you until all the estate is settled.

If beneficiaries 3 & 4 (or who ever) choose not to sell & instead have the property transferred to their name that's fine, but the liabilities to the estate still have to be settled.

I think you've made a pigs breakfast of this.

Not sure why you had to pay for a barristers opinion.

IANAL
 
DannyBoyD said:
I don't understand how you sold a property and paid tax on it when it was not in your name.

If it sold when still in the possession of the 'estate of the late Jane Johnson'; then none of the proceeds comes to you until all the estate is settled.

If beneficiaries 3 & 4 (or who ever) choose not to sell & instead have the property transferred to their name that's fine, but the liabilities to the estate still have to be settled.

I think you've made a pigs breakfast of this.

Not sure why you had to pay for a barristers opinion.

IANAL
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My inheritance was sold in order to repay the nursing home loan. The land was in my name on the basis of probate. This was the advice I received from my solicitor. Are you saying I was ill advised by my solicitor in that I was not told that I could not access the proceeds until such time as the estate was "settled ", whatever that means.
 
What do you mean by "the land was in my name on the basis of probate"?

Either the property was transferred into your name or it wasn't.

I suspect you weren't listening to your Solicitor.

Why did you need a barristers opinion?

IANAL
 
DannyBoyD said:
What do you mean by "the land was in my name on the basis of probate"?

Either the property was transferred into your name or it wasn't.

I suspect you weren't listening to your Solicitor.

Why did you need a barristers opinion?

IANAL
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I mean that I was informed that I could sell the land that was willed to me after probate had been granted. How can you sell something that is not yours or not in your name? This I have done and when nursing home load has been paid from the proceeds of that sale all the testator debts will have been paid. I don't see why I should be waiting any longer to access the remaining monies from my sale after all debts have been discharged and I leave funds in the residue to cover solicitors fees. The barristers opinion is on another issue. That issue was related to how money would transfer to HSE to repay the loan. Barristers said it should be repaid as funds reached the solicitors account. In other words the proceeds from my inheritance would reach the account first and I would be obliged to pay the loan from my those proceeds. I have listened to every word my solicitor has said and carefully examined all correspondence from my solicitor. I don't see how you can suggest otherwise. I am simply looking for advise or a second opinion. Going to another solicitor is costly and a waste of time as they all know each other.
 
Baffling said:
In other words the proceeds from my inheritance would reach the account first and I would be obliged to pay the loan from my those proceeds.
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Why did you need to pay a barrister four figures for that? IANAL but it seems self evident that the HSE loan should be repaid before testatees see a cent of cash.

I wonder about the quality of the advice you’ve received from your solicitor at all.
 
T McGibney said:
What on earth were you doing prepaying Capital Acquisitions Tax on your share of a residue that you had neither received nor had its amount determined, when the liability date for payment of this tax follows the date on which the relevant amount is determined?
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The amount I had to pay in CAT was determined by the valuation of the land I was willed. This valuation was carried out by a reputable estate agent after my relative passed away. This was obligatory. My accountant dealt with the payment after much hassle in relation to my inability to pay. No leeway given by revenue. Had to borrow money and pay or else interest would accrue. There you go. God bless
Dr Strangelove said:
Why did you need to pay a barrister four figures for that? IANAL but it seems self evident that the HSE loan should be repaid before testatees see a cent of cash.

I wonder about the quality of the advice you’ve received from your solicitor at all.
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I did not pay him four figures. The advise was rather cheap in fact. I am wondering myself about the the legal advise I am getting.
 
Baffling said:
The amount I had to pay in CAT was determined by the valuation of the land I was willed. This valuation was carried out by a reputable estate agent after my relative passed away. This was obligatory. My accountant dealt with the payment after much hassle in relation to my inability to pay. No leeway given by revenue. Had to borrow money and pay or else interest would accrue. There you go. God bless
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Ok.

So you haven't paid the CAT on the residue, as you claimed here.

One other thing. I have already paid the inheritance tax.I had to borrow this money from a relative and need to repay him. That was embarrassing enough. I will suffer more embarrassment if I do not have the resources to pay the capital whatever other tax in August. Does the solicitor have a legal basis for withholding my assets and if so what is this legal basis?
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What further CAT bill are you expecting in August if the residue money doesn't come through in the meantime?

The CAT pay and file date is 31 October annually.
 
How you describe everything is all very confusing so I guess none of us really understand what you are trying to ask. As the executor you should be very clear on the terminology and the status of the assets of the estate, and it seems your solicitor is trying his best but …..

4 beneficiaries were left 14 parcels of land/property.
Residue of estate was left to you.
There was debts of nursing home loan.
Probate granted June 2023.
Nursing home loan was due to be paid Nov 2023 - the estate paid some interest due but not all the loan.
You personally borrowed money to pay CAT which you paid (but you did not own the assets as the estate had not been distributed)
3 of the 4 beneficiaries instructed that their potential legacies be sold by the estate and they would take their portion as cash. (this includes you). The 4th beneficiary is keeping the land/property.
The executor (you) instructed each of the 3 beneficiaries selling to arrange and conduct the sale themselves (this is very odd, usually the executor would do all of this)..
The proceeds of the sales will be gathered by the solicitor assisting you.
As soon as there is sufficient funds the nursing home loan will be paid (this is prudent as interest accrues quickly), and you even paid for a barristers opinion on it!
Once all the cash assets are gathered the other debts are paid, and the cash distributed to the 3 beneficiaries (sale money-fees & charges- some complex calculation of how much each paid of the nursing home loan).
Then you get your money and you can repay your loan that you took to pay the CAT. It is only at this stage that you know what your CAT liability actually is as up to now you had received no money or assets from the estate.

Given how hard it was to understand what you are describing (and I am sure I got somethings wrong) I would think the solicitor will strongly suggest that no monies be paid out until all the assets are gathered. Your understanding of whether you and/or the other beneficiaries owned the assets or were acting as executor of the estate seems very woolly. I really think you should just follow the solicitors advice step by step until he gives you a final cheque and can close the file, and not muddy the whole thing by looking for partial payment of your inheritance early.

Best of luck, it would have been a very hard task getting to probate with all the different assets and beneficiaries desperate for cash but you are close to the end now.
 
T McGibney said:
Ok.

So you haven't paid the CAT on the residue, as you claimed here.


What further CAT bill are you expecting in August if the residue money doesn't come through in the meantime?

The CAT pay and file date is 31 October annually.
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I will have to pay CGT based on the proceeds of my sale which exceed the the original valuation on the land immediately preceding my relatives passing. This Gains Tax has to be filed by mid August and paid by mid September this year. I do not pay tax on the residue as I do not get a cent from the residue. All monies in the residue go to paying outstanding debts, eg, funeral expenses, utility bills, solicitor fees and other legal expenses. Any monies remaining in the residue after these expenses go toward the Nursing home load. Even though I was willed the residue I receive nothing from it. Therefore no tax..
 
Baffling said:
Any monies remaining in the residue after these expenses go toward the Nursing home loa[n]
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There's a specific order by which debts are paid; I'm sure this list is published somewhere & someone will link to it.

But I'm willing to put money on it that the Fair Deal loan is high up on that list; so its one of the first & not last items to be paid.
 
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