Why I'm in favour of a properly constituted property tax

xeresod said:

How would it be a tax on Dublin and Galway? City properties are by and large far smaller than rural ones, so people living there would be paying far less than most other areas.

Click to expand...

Sorry, you're right, my bad, it's the other way around.

The level of state sercices that an area gets increases or decreases the site value. It doesn't change the home value. That's why I like the idea of a site value based tax.

But how do you account for apartments when the value is on the Site, not the home?

jman0war said:

But how do you account for apartments when the value is on the Site, not the home?

Click to expand...

Site vale/ number of units.

Ok, incentivising apartment living.
That's good as it should encourage density.

However site values are already massively higher in city centres and along transport routes, so to also pay higher property taxes is like getting stung twice.
Stung with high priced mortages to live near infastructure, then stung each year with higher property taxes. This will result in sprawl as people are lured by cheaper taxes on cheaper sites away from infastructure. This will have a negative impact on future services and for futher planning.

I propose that while it's already a given that those sites will cost more, but with a view to encouraging density we reward apartments and small home dwellers with cheaper property taxes.
It costs less per head to roll out infastructure in high density areas, compared to the price per head in rural areas.

jman0war said:

Ok, incentivising apartment living.
That's good as it should encourage density.

However site values are already massively higher in city centres and along transport routes, so to also pay higher property taxes is like getting stung twice.
Stung with high priced mortages to live near infastructure, then stung each year with higher property taxes. This will result in sprawl as people are lured by cheaper taxes on cheaper sites away from infastructure. This will have a negative impact on future services and for futher planning.

I propose that while it's already a given that those sites will cost more, but with a view to encouraging density we reward apartments and small home dwellers with cheaper property taxes.
It costs less per head to roll out infastructure in high density areas, compared to the price per head in rural areas.

Click to expand...

Higher property taxes would cause values to drop. That way the state takes a bigger share of the value it creates by providing the services rather than the owner gaining when they sell. Within a decade they could forecase what the return would be in increased property taxes from a light rail line so ROI on infrastructure projects could be forecasted.

jman0war said:

I propose that while it's already a given that those sites will cost more, but with a view to encouraging density we reward apartments and small home dwellers with cheaper property taxes.
.

Click to expand...

And are you one of these dwellers whom you wish to reward?

No i am not a property owner, but a renter, living away from infastructure.

Higher property taxes would cause values to drop

Click to expand...

So far the property tax rates proposed are small and would have negligible impact on site value. I suppose theoretically property taxes should affect site value, I dont know of any real world examples.

I suspect what we'll see, (besides people campaigning against property taxes and political pressure keeping them low), is the sort of phenomenon i've seen here whereby infastructure like light rail gets rolled-out for pork-barrel reasons, and those living nearest to it don't use it anyway and climb into their D4 Tractors to chauffer themselves to the office in comfort.

jman0war said:

I suspect what we'll see, (besides people campaigning against property taxes and political pressure keeping them low), is the sort of phenomenon i've seen here whereby infastructure like light rail gets rolled-out for pork-barrel reasons, and those living nearest to it don't use it anyway and climb into their D4 Tractors to chauffer themselves to the office in comfort.

Click to expand...

You mean like the LUAS in tallaght?
If infrastructure increases property prices them people will pay higher property taxes. That’s why a site value tax is the best option.

I would have no problem with the property tax if i got something for it . I pay motor tax for the upkeep of the roads (so i thought) i pay for a private bin collection . I pay if i have to call the fire brigade . I pay to attend hospital and doctors , school books . So what will i exactly get for it . Other than the grass being cut i don't see any benefit for me or my neighbours .

You won't get anything extra, and nobody ever said you would.

You get the existing LA services.

Your current payments don't cover the total costs of these.

Well it would be another good few years before my estate will be taken over by the council . As for paying for the roads my motor tax should be taking care of them . The parks and public facilities are used by everyone so everyone should pay , not just private households .

Definitely a disincentive not to even try and house yourself , safer to put yourself on a council list while renting , least if you lose your job there's rent allowance too

Protocol said:

You won't get anything extra, and nobody ever said you would.

You get the existing LA services.

Your current payments don't cover the total costs of these.

Click to expand...

They don't cover the costs because the slashed the budgets.

The minister said it was to cover services, footpaths, streetlights and parks I get no services, we have no street lights, no footpaths and the nearest park is 5 miles away. What am I paying for then?

It penalises people who live in the rural areas who built their own homes that are now naturally worth double what the build cost was. Even now if I build a house for 300k it will be worth significantly more than that so why should that shrewdness penalise me?

I think you will find that they brought the tax in to bring us in line with the uk, France and Germany who have them and was part of the IMF/eu bailout that also required water rates.

If they want to bring us into line the surely the same benefits they get should apply. I paid for no school books in the uk, got free travel for children to school, no waste services, no fire brigade, they have leisure centres for all to use and are free for children.

The government needs to realise it cannot tax it's citizens out of recession, if people have no spare cash and cash is not changing hands then it will never improve.

Exactly my point well said Charlie R . The people that pay these charges get to see something for the money they pay we are getting nothing. Don't people in council houses in the UK also pay property taxes and water rates .

reddanmm said:

Exactly my point well said Charlie R . The people that pay these charges get to see something for the money they pay we are getting nothing. Don't people in council houses in the UK also pay property taxes and water rates .

Click to expand...

Correct, every household pays council tax & water rates, there are discounts for single occupancy, houses being refurbished or empty and no 2nd property charge.

Also the tennant in the house pays them not the landlord. That will be the next move by the government probably for tennants to pay a tennant house hold charge on top of the owners household charge.

As far as i know the present proposals call for the occupier (tenant or owner occupier) to pay the water charges, refuse charges etc and for the property owner to pay the property tax.

Property tax Discrinination

In my opinion, the introduction of a property tax blatantly discriminates against private property owners. There are numerous groups of society who were exempt from the household charge and this will more than likely apply also when the property tax is introduced.

As extracted from the established website (www.householdcharge.ie) the purpose of this payment is :
"Revenues from the household charge will support the provision of local services. Internationally, local services are administered by local authorities and financed by local service charges. In Ireland, local authorities are responsible for, among other services, public parks; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities; planning and development; fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets and street lighting. These facilities benefit everyone"

Individuals who are renting properties from local authorities are exempt from this charge and I maintain that this discriminates against private individuals who have purchased their own properties. People who are renting from local authorites all use the services as described above and the charge is a blatant discrimination against private home owners.

I am aware of numerous people who are in good full time employment, earning a decent wage and they are exempt from paying the household charge because they are renting from the local authority. This discriminates against private property owners who chose to buy their own property and not put additional pressures on the local authorities

Middle Ireland being targeted again.