That’s a different issue Truthseeker; those were circumstances beyond your control.
I don’t see a scenario where someone in your position should be forced to pay. You don’t have net assets and also have a low income.
I used to think this. Then I lost my job, my husband lost his job, my property devalued by 100,000 euro - none of these things were through any fault of my own you understand. Id like to sell my property and as such, improve my means. But I cant. The bank wont let me.
I wouldn't have a problem with spreading the cost of a property tax over 12 months and if it's taken at source all the better.
My main worry is how the value of my home will be calculated. When I had to job of selling my late mothers properties I got massive differences in valuation (70K) between estate agents. In the end all of them were incorrect and we had to accept an offer of 15K below the minimum valuation.
Will the tax be the actual market value or what revenue feel is the current value?
Will I be taxed more if I try to improve my lot - insulation / new windows / tidy garden?
If so, I will have to weigh up any improvements against an additional tax liability.
I don't have a problem with a fair (or as fair as you can get) property tax. But this has all the hallmarks of being implemented in a ham fisted manner.
One other thing, my CC will not take over my estate leaving the residents with an average management fee of e500. I don't know if this will be taken into account or not.
At the end of the day the government made a complete hash of this now they are sending out different scenarios on how it will be put in place hoping that one scenario will sit well with people .
They are a shower of bumbling buffons that are not capable of running a small country . I really despair .
That’s a different issue Truthseeker; those were circumstances beyond your control.
I don’t see a scenario where someone in your position should be forced to pay. You don’t have net assets and also have a low income.
Taxes are NOT optional. That’s like saying that excise duty on cigarettes is optional because you don’t smoke – but what you mean is that the origin/trigger for the tax is optional; but the actual tax itself is not optional once you do/buy/own something that gives rise to tax. Buying property is optional, paying a lawfully-due property tax is not optional.A property tax is optional. Unless you are in negative equity and are trapped in your property. No one has to own a property.
The December budget is undoubtedly going to have higher taxes in it – somehow the government is going to have to raise more revenue. If we don’t have a property tax, income tax will probably have to go up more than it otherwise would and benefits will have to be cut more than they otherwise would. One way or another, people will have to pay more/get less. No-one wants this to happen but we spend massively more than we take in so there is no choice for the country.People cant afford more taxes.
The same can be said about many taxes that not everyone pays – fewer than 2M people pay all of the income tax yet everyone in the country benefits, fewer than 150,000 people pay half of all income tax yet everyone benefits. VAT is about the only tax that is paid by everyone. There will always be many sources of government income but there isn’t always (ever?) a direct payment-benefit connection.Realistically 1.6 million home owners are funding the countries council costs and the rest pay nothing and enjoy the benefits .
Taxes are NOT optional. That’s like saying that excise duty on cigarettes is optional because you don’t smoke – but what you mean is that the origin/trigger for the tax is optional; but the actual tax itself is not optional once you do/buy/own something that gives rise to tax. Buying property is optional, paying a lawfully-due property tax is not optional.
Completely agree !
Why don't the Government just listen to the likes of Ronan Lyons ?
From seeing him on VB'S show the other night and having read through his website http://www.ronanlyons.com/2012/08/27/property-tax-its-not-rocket-science/
I really think he is an expert on the issue and should be listened to.
The Government will make a pig's ear of the property Tax issue as they did with the Bankruptcy issue ignoring the experts and bumbling on ....and on...
No connection to Ronan Lyons
You’re welcome – although I’m still struggling with your ‘property tax is optional’ being the same as my ‘taxes are NOT optional’ but anyhoo...Eh, youre not saying anything different to what I say, just formatting it differently, but thank you for telling me what I meant
What does being ‘not in favour’ of the tax have to do with anything? See discussion above – I thought we agreed that taxes, once triggered, are not optional. Being in negative equity is irrelevant too – two people could have paid the same price for the same house but one has a bigger mortgage because the other used more savings – why should their liability to property tax depend on their loan amount? And not everyone in negative equity is in a ‘can’t pay’ situation. Answering your main question, I propose that everyone who has triggered the tax and is lawfully liable for the tax pays the tax. Not paying is tax evasion.So what do you propose the thousands of people in negative equity who have already triggered the tax liability but are not in favour of property tax do about it?
The ‘pontification’ (I would call it explanation in the face of apparent lack of understanding of why the money is needed, why it being collected this way and what the alternatives would be) is required as there seems to be an undercurrent of ‘I can’t pay/won’t pay and this tax isn’t really needed by the government anyway’ – it IS needed and if it isn’t collected as a property tax it will be collected elsewhere – but obviously the ‘can’t pay/won’t pay’ people are hoping that the alternative won’t affect them –someone else should pay. In terms of solutions, as things stand now, the tax has been triggered and there is no solution other than – pay the tax or watch the arrears pile up. I think for those who would genuinely struggle to pay, there should be some mechanism to register, park the tax and have it build up with a modest interest charge until the homeowner is in a position to start paying it off or until the house is sold and the tax taken as a charge on the proceeds.Simply pontificating on what a tax is and the state of the country is not a solution to a real problem. Its quite clear the population is very divided over this with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people yet to pay the household charge.
Taxes are never ‘fair’ – there will always be an element of ‘I’m paying too much, someone else should pay more’. With apologies if this is perceived again as pontification (perhaps I should preface with IMHO), any solution at national level for those affected by negative equity should be a separate issue to national taxation policy. Lobby for negative equity assistance if you feel strongly that something should be done about it but the issue shouldn’t impact or be built into what is hopefully a stable long-term property taxation structure.Raising taxes is one thing, but shouldnt there be an element of fairness? There is already a generation of people in this country who may never escape the problems of negative equity - is it fair to burden them with yet another tax?
What does being ‘not in favour’ of the tax have to do with anything? See discussion above – I thought we agreed that taxes, once triggered, are not optional. Being in negative equity is irrelevant too – two people could have paid the same price for the same house but one has a bigger mortgage because the other used more savings – why should their liability to property tax depend on their loan amount? And not everyone in negative equity is in a ‘can’t pay’ situation. Answering your main question, I propose that everyone who has triggered the tax and is lawfully liable for the tax pays the tax. Not paying is tax evasion.
Its clear you cant see where Im coming from.
I wouldnt have bought a property if there was a property tax. But now (due to negative equity) I have no way out of being liable. Its fundamentally unfair.
I can see where you are coming from.
No offence whatsoever to Ronan Lyons who is both smart and a nice person. However, he doesn't even live in Ireland anymore and yet he's portrayed as some type of guru on the Irish economy. And his suggestion that the government give everyone a tax credit next year to help us pay auctioneers to value our homes & sites is frankly laughable.
Thanks. I was starting to think I wasnt making any sense.
I dont want to be criminalised for something that I have no choice in, but it looks like I (and thousands of others) will be.
You are in a horrible situation and typify so many people who have seen so much of what they worked for disappear almost overnight.Eh, youre not saying anything different to what I say, just formatting it differently, but thank you for telling me what I meant
So what do you propose the thousands of people in negative equity who have already triggered the tax liability but are not in favour of property tax do about it? They cant sell their properties. When they bought them there was no trigger.
Simply pontificating on what a tax is and the state of the country is not a solution to a real problem. Its quite clear the population is very divided over this with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people yet to pay the household charge.
Raising taxes is one thing, but shouldnt there be an element of fairness? There is already a generation of people in this country who may never escape the problems of negative equity - is it fair to burden them with yet another tax?
No offence whatsoever to Ronan Lyons who is both smart and a nice person. However, he doesn't even live in Ireland anymore and yet he's portrayed as some type of guru on the Irish economy. And his suggestion that the government give everyone a tax credit next year to help us pay auctioneers to value our homes & sites is frankly laughable.
I'm sorry for your current situation but frankly I don't believe that the lack of a property tax had anything to do with your decision to purchase an apartment.
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