"Why aren't people rioting in the streets?"

Firefly said:
Given the state of the property market and falling rents, I doubt that the gov is losing much in the way of the property tax releifs.
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€750m per annum on mortgage interest relief for property investors at the last count. That would make a substantial difference to our current deficit.

I take your point about low hanging fruit, but fairness is important too. There is no reason why these issues could not be addressed in parallel. We're coming up to two years of crisis now, so they've had plenty of time to address fairness.
 

I couldn't agree more with the principles behind what you are saying, I remain to be convinved that if the Govt were to do this and make all those cuts that the unions would say, "grand so, we're fine with the levies and the Croke Park deal"
 
Mpsox said:
I couldn't agree more with the principles behind what you are saying, I remain to be convinved that if the Govt were to do this and make all those cuts that the unions would say, "grand so, we're fine with the levies and the Croke Park deal"
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Some unions have already said 'grand so, we're fine' for the Croker deal, without any sense of fairness around.
 
In fairness, mortage interest is arguably a legitimate expense. If you want to talk about fairness in this regard here are some low hanging fruit which for the life of me I can't see why they aren't addressed.
  • Landlords with tenants in receipt of Rent Allowance don't need to supply their PPSN. Currently only 20% supply this.
  • Properties rented to the HSE or RAS schemes don't attract the NPPR tax.
  • Councils are still buying properties for the Affordable Housing scheme when they can't sell their existing ones, even on the open market (DDDA, Dun Laoighre).
To me these anomolies facilitate tax evasion and/or favor those in the know. There's plenty of corrupt practices that could addressed before we start (continue) slashing and burning.
 
Ok, so first you say:

Complainer said:
Strangely enough, most union members aren't foolish or childish, and have the same level of understanding of our economic position as most other people.

But I guess it is easier just to attack the person instead of trying to understand their POV.
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But

Complainer said:
Some unions have already said 'grand so, we're fine' for the Croker deal, without any sense of fairness around.
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One slightly off topic question. Does anyone notice how much the Government is hiding behind advice from the AG these days? The AG does not decide what is constitutional or what isn't. He can only give an opinion. Why don't we let the Court's actually decide. For example on the ministerial pensions, the EU/IMF are making Greece cut public sector pensions. If they were to come in and say we had to do the same, would we turn around and say 'sorry, it's unconsitutional.
If things like cutting TD's and Ministerial Pensions for sitting and retired policitians is unconstitutional, lets have a referendum. Lets do up a list of things that the politicians are refusing to implement because of 'constitutional' issues and let the people decide.
 
If we are bringing fairness into it then why not spread the income tax more fairly? The top 6% pay half the income tax and the bottom 50% don't pay any. Where's the fairness in that?
A single person, earning €100k a year pays 39% their income in tax. Someone earning €50k pays less than 24%. So the guy who earns twice as much takes home 50% more. Where's the fairness in that?
 

+1 We must have the most unequal, disincentive to better yourself tax system.
 

Arent we due a Constitutional Referendum in the Autumn. And we've a Presidential election in 2011. If the AG is correct, we can vote to change the Constitution?
 
Complainer said:
€750m per annum on mortgage interest relief for property investors at the last count. That would make a substantial difference to our current deficit.
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Interest on loans is a legitimate business expense, it's not "mortgage interest relief" in the same way that PPR mortgage holders get it. If interest on investment loans are no longer counted as an expense then neither should other expenses such as refurbishment, depreciation, management fees etc.
 
Howitzer said:
In fairness, mortage interest is arguably a legitimate expense.
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Not when it is combined with interest-only mortgages to ensure that the state subsidises the interest payment for the landlord.

Fully agree.

Howitzer said:
  • Councils are still buying properties for the Affordable Housing scheme when they can't sell their existing ones, even on the open market (DDDA, Dun Laoighre).
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Are you sure they are actively buying (i.e. spending council money)? Or is it the case that these properties are being handed over to the councils arising from the 20% requirement.
 
Complainer said:
Are you sure they are actively buying (i.e. spending council money)? Or is it the case that these properties are being handed over to the councils arising from the 20% requirement.
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Depends which way you look at it.
 
Complainer said:
Not when it is combined with interest-only mortgages to ensure that the state subsidises the interest payment for the landlord.
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Why is it not OK and, since it is an expense, how is the state subsidises the interest payment for the landlord? The landlord is choosing not to repay the capital on a loan so the repayments drop but the interest charged stays the same.
 
If allowances for business expenses such as interest relief are removed then landlords will sell up and get out of the business altogether. Assuming this happens. Where will people who rent live.
The alternative is to increase the rent charged. The landlord is not running a charity.

Landlords provide a valuable service and more often than not a good product.
 
Howitzer said:
Depends which way you look at it.
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So it looks like the councils are committed to deals struck at boom prices, just like many individual purchasers.

Don't know what the solution is there - certainly, they shouldn't leave themselves open to the kind of abuse suggested by the DLR golf club case, whereby only the social element gets built.

Niallers said:
If allowances for business expenses such as interest relief are removed then landlords will sell up and get out of the business altogether. Assuming this happens. Where will people who rent live.
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The properties don't dissapear if the landlord sells up. So presumably, those people will live in the same or similar properties, either as owners or as tenants, but at reduced costs.

Niallers said:
Landlords provide a valuable service and more often than not a good product.
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Indeed they do - but there is no reason for the state to subsidise their interest-only mortgages.
 
"Why aren't people rioting in the streets?"

Three people were killed in Athens today when Anarchists attacked a Bank.

Does this really progress their economic survival ?

What good would it do if the same thing happened here ?

We have had thirty years of civil disorder up North and it achieved nothing that wasnt on the table at Sunningdale in 1973
 
Yorrick, violence is still one of the most effective ways to solve problems. If this wasn't the case, Governments wouldn't spend billions on armies and fighting wars. The second world war was ended because of violence.
Violence also caused Irish independence. For the Northern Ireland example, the IRA bombing Bishopsgate certainly would have hastened the peace process.

The Greek riots show that the Greek government have lost a certain amount of control.
 
How is rioting on the streets going to solve any problems pray tell? And what problems do you propose to solve by murdering people in their work places? Has Greece miraculously solved its debt crisis as a result of the riots? Don't give us any stupid examples such as your last post in response.
 
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