Where's The Great Morality Debate In The Tiger Era


The the faults of the Catholic Church!!!

Faults! Is that what you think this was, some sort of character flaw, an unfortnuate mistake??? If that's what you think then no wonder you think this comparison is invalid.

The actions of the individual priests were criminal, and MAY be attributable to some psychological flaw, I'm not an expert.

The actions of the Institution to cover up the abuses and protect the criminals was a criminal act designed to protect the church's strangle hold on the people of the country. And it persisted up to recently, and some would say it still persists.

I despise the IRA, I'm not going to appologise for them or for Sinn Fein, and my views on them are here for you to read if you care to search.

But, you can't simply sweep the actions of the church under the rug as if they can in no way be compared to terrorism. Yes it's controversial to draw a comparison between a group that did what you described above, and a religious organisation.

That doesn't mean that it's an invalid comparison. Ask some of the victims of the church's actions over the last couple of decades what impact it had on them and their families. You won't be able to ask the ones who died while in the "care" of the church, or those who've committed suicide. I don't know how the death toll stands up to the IRA. The IRA might win that one.

Perhaps you think the good done by the religious orders should enable us to overlook the bad. Would you accept that logic if people argued that the IRA did some good in protecting communities in the North? Neither would I.

I don't know who did more damage the IRA or the Church, but I don't think it's so ridiculous a question that it can't be asked, or that asking it somehow shows us to be immoral.

and the deliberate and calculated breeding of naked sectarian hatred;
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Yeah, the church has really led the way in reaching out to to people of other faiths in a spirit of friendship.
What Pioneers.

The actions of the IRA have more visible signs. Tombstones that shouldn't be there and limbs that should. But that doesn't mean that the invisible devastation caused by the Church isn't every bit as serious and every bit as real. And you don't get to say 3 Hail Mary's and an Our Father to make it go away.

-Rd
 
Like it or lump it, the Catholic Church did not kill anywhere near 1,800 people in this country within my own lifetime.

Its a despicable distortion to accuse me of "sweeping the actions of the church under the rug" (sic) simply for pointing this out.
 
I didn't realise your lifetime was the window during which the morality of Ireland was being measured.

And given the choice between a bullet in the head and being repeatedly raped and beaten, I'd have to think seriously about which option I'd take.

Just because many of the Church's victims are still walking around doesn't mean the crime was less serious.

If you want to tell me that I have low morals for even questioning how the severity of the Church's Crimes stack up against the severity of the IRA's then you are sweeping them under the rug. You are minimising the Church's actions.

Perhaps the IRA were too efficient. How about we compare the church to less efficient terrorists? Would that make you happier with the comparison?


-Rd
 


Right - lets get things straight here - terrorism of any ilk is wrong, Britisg government, loyalist or republican, but lets get the facts straight, and not listen to the West-brits that seem to occupy the Irish media at present. Speaking as a nationalist civilian non-combatant that actually lived in Northern Ireland (Derry and Belfast) for all of the 70s/80s, I was rather grateful for the implied protection of the IRA against loyalist death squads - at the end of the day - only terrorists / security forces were armed up and hence they knew the risks - The 30 year war was not republican led.

Now for the facts according to Wikipedia, the CAIN project and statistics

"
civilian non-combatant deaths in northern ireland 1969 - 1997 - Wikipedia

Civilians account for the highest death toll at 53% or 1798 fatalities. Loyalist paramilitaries account for a higher proportion of civilian deaths (those with no military or paramilitary connection) according to figures published in Malcolm Sutton’s book, “Bear in Mind These Dead: An Index of Deaths from the Conflict in Ireland 1969 - 1993”. According to research undertaken by the CAIN organisation, based on Sutton's work, 85.6% (873) of Loyalist killings, 52.9% (190) by the security forces and 35.9% (738) of all killings by Republican paramilitaries took the lives of civilians between 1969 and 2001. The disparity of a relatively high civilian death toll yet low Republican percentage is explained by the fact that they also had a high combatant's death toll, while on the other hand the Loyalists focused almost exclusively on civilians as they rarely discriminated between the Catholic community and Republicans.
 
Thanks for the figures derryman.

Even if we limit ourselves to Church victims who came forward under the Redress scheme, I think I'm right in saying it was about 15,000 cases.

But I wouldn't draw the line under this abuse as being the only terrorising the Church did. The Decades of oppression, women raped by husbands who had a sense of entitlement. Women sent away because of the a church fostered view of sex outside marriage. The money sucked out of communities who had little enough to give.

It's controversial to draw comparisons between something that obviously is terrorism and is recognised as such, and the actions of an organisation that holds itself up as some sort of moral authority.

But a reluctance to stand up to the church, and an actual fear of god in many cases, is what gave them such power for so long.

One thing is for sure, both the Church and the IRA are on the way out, and Ireland will be all the better for it. The IRA might survive as a comrades assciation, and the Church might continue for the minority of people who need them for spiritual fulfillment, but neither will have the power or the opportunity to do the things they did in the past.

-Rd
 
daltonr said:
One thing is for sure, both the Church and the IRA are on the way out, and Ireland will be all the better for it.
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At c. 90% claimed adherence in census 2002 (no figures yet available for 2006) and, in certain quarters, an unthinking and atavistic compulsion to go with the flow in terms of participation in certain religious ceremonies (especially when it comes to their kids) I wouldn't be so sure about the Catholic Church being on the way out just yet.
 
That would be the same census that claimed that 37% of the population were competent Irish Speakers.

It'll take a generation or two to shake out the ones that go through the Sacraments out of guilt or pressure from parents etc. I doubt the 90% of Catholics by name are actually Catholics by nature.

-Rd
 
Not that its my main point, but I dont feel that catholicism or organised religion in general needs to be eradicated. I'm a firm believer (If you'll you pardon the pun) in "a la carte" catholicism - i.e. you dont necessarily check your brain at the door.

The church for me is a bit of a tradition, I'm not into prayer as such but a bit of reflection is no harm for anyone. A half hour on here reading and contributing to intelligent debate is more stimulating than mass but that doesnt mean mass is, in itself a bad thing. Religion should play no part in affairs of the State, should religion inform the morals of polticians or lawmakers then thats incidential, we the people should inform them if we agree.

The one benefit of some sort of religion, take catholicism as an example, is that it can give people a sense of community and perspective that maybe its not all about themselves. So I think the church, and my meagre/non-commital involvement in it is a positive influence in my life, if not a hugely significant one.

Now, after all that equivocating guff !!, my main point is that Irelands moral fibre is more alive than ever for those who wish to engage in it. We have blanket media coverage where we, as a nation, question ourselves endlessly. Many of us have been lucky to have the benefit of a good education so we're equipped to critically analyse something and form our own view. I think the original OP was of the view that we were sheep looking around us in awe and confusion, who should lead by the nose and tell us the way was the implicit question.

Sure theres thousands who never look up and appreciate the debate but I dont propose that they need anything rammed down their throat either.

Long live the lively-debating Ireland ....... as evidenced on this site.
 
I dont feel that catholicism or organised religion in general needs to be eradicated.
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I agree with you there, it doesn't need to be eradicated, in fact eradicating people right to believe in any given thing would be very bad indeed.

The one benefit of some sort of religion, take catholicism as an example, is that it can give people a sense of community and perspective that maybe its not all about themselves.
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A decent parent can probably do the same thing. I think religions actually go too far in this to the point of saying it's not about yourself at all. Being happy, being rich, experiencing pleasure are almost protrayed as bad things.

I agree with the rest of your points about debate etc.

-Rd
 

Well Drapier - you got to look at this way - We are the nouveau riche of Europe - the flashiest boy racers on the block - like an 18 year old boy just out of single sex education ,with a new set of wheels ,money in your backpocket and an all out aspiration and desire to discover and wallow in joys of sex ,drugs and rock and roll! . The fact that you have to grow up and face reality at the some stage and that maybe there is something more to life than the afore mentioned sins of the flesh really hasnt appeared on our radar screens yet - we're simply having too much fun in our new found material wealth. Im sure it will change gradually like we all do , when after being released from our parents grip we get our taste of freedom, go mad etc etc - yet after a while , it varies from person to person , we find the need to for somthing more - for some its a career or vocation , others a partner ,marriage children family .As we have to pay our own bills take on responsibilities our perceptions change. We are no longer massively impressed by the record number of pints can be downed in an hour ,how many traffic cones we can fit into the apartment we start giving out about antisocial behaviour , the appearance of young wans wearing next to nothing , that nobody has any manners anymore until things come full circle when you're sitting in your favourite chair , spouting verbal abuse at the TV ,lecturing to anybody within earshot how the country is going to hell in a handbasket and then its hits you - you have become your grumpy Father - all you're missing are the tartan slippers , a tumbler of whiskey and a tendency to drift off during the most important and complicated part of the film plot!

Anyway back to your main point I feel the country is going through a protracted bout of late adolesence / early adulthood . We have left behind the "security" and "passe" thinking of the guardians of our earlier self , the state and the church. Like all young adults we revel in the freedom that money and wealth gives us - we are self absorbed and opinionated to the point of distraction and give off the impression that we know exactly where we are going and we are in control - yet under the surface we are also desperately scratching around for something to hold on to while we are trying to make our mind up where to go - thats the thing about freedom -its all about choices and decisions can be difficult, particularly when you have rejected the previous road maps and are too stubborn ,proud or just plain blinded to ask for directions. thats where I think we are the moment - wealth and prosperity , believe it or not , can be quite destructive and the upheaval caused distressing - if there is one thing humanity in general prizes above all others -its certainty - certainty that my house will still be standing tomorrow , that the money in my bank account is safe,certainty that I will always be better than the uneducated poor chap on the other side of the tracks, and most importantly that the belief system that I have been conditioned into and have conditioned myself to accept is still valid today - in essence that I still count in the fast moving fast changing society of today.

For me , Morality ,like Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder . Right throughout our history our concept of right and wrong, good and bad , mores and taboos have constantly changed and will always be to a degree in a every changing state of flux as each new generation reassesses the belief system of the one before,either tweaking it , taking a chainsaw to the whole edifice or strangely, reimposing one that has gone out of fashion a few generations before. At this particular point in our history I think we have taken the chainsaw option to a lot of deadwood and are slowly but surely coming up with a new frame as , without question , the last 15-20 years has been a period of massive social and economic change ,unparalled in my opinion, since the concept of "Ireland" "Irishness" and the "Irish Nation" came into being back in the 16th/17th centuries. 1916 and war of independence pale in comparison , leaving aside all the grandiose and "commie" talk in the proclamation - all we really ended up doing was changing the name over the door. We were still a **** poor rural agarian subistence based society of the mainland of Europe - but at least it was our own **** poor rural agarian subsistence based society and values that went with it.

The Catholic Church, of course, looms large over any discussion about "morality" in this country. Well over 90% of us are or were fundementalist, practising, a la carte, lapsed or just got off the whole damn programme , Catholics. I as a born again agnostic/atheist - (depends how depressed I am) would count myself in the latter category - yet I cannot ignore the Churchs input into the whole "morality" of the nation. Now , by the church , I mean the whole fecking lot of yous I have just described in the above sentences , not just the clergy and politboro in Rome. As other posters have reflected on here - how did the Catholic church grab such a hold over the nation collective mores or more pointedly ,why did we, the people of Ireland sign our rights to decide what was wrong and right over to the clergy?

Well I kinda found the answer to that a decade and more ago when after a summer working in Germany I went interrailing around the then newly opened up Eastern Euope for a couple of months. I remember visiting monasteries in Romania , Bulgaria and Macedonia and being absolutely astounded at the number of people visiting these places ,even on weekdays and these monasteries were deep in mountain forests and very inacessable places. Even as an atheist I still feel a profound sense of awe when Im a great Cathedral or place of worship and to this day these monasteries were some of the most beautiful places I have ever visted in my life (if you get a chance to go these countries ,forget the concrete condo jungle on coastline or the sky resorts - these are the real treasures of these countries) . The sense of history in frescos and ornaments was palpable.
Not long after visiting one of these in Bulgaria I was in the Press Club in Sofia - (the one place where in the early 90's where you could be assured a good drink and great company) and I was chatting to a Bulgarian journalist, Christos, I think he was a stringer for AP or Reuters and we got into a conversation about the monasteries and he proceeded to tell me of how important these places were to the Bulgarian sense of identity and how they kept this identity alive during the long years of Ottoman occupation. In essence The Orthodox chuch became the repository of Bulgarian national identity.

Now - transfer that thought back to Ireland. Its a valid comparsion. After Cromwells victory and succeeding plantations and imposition of the Penal Laws the Catholic church, as the one organisation not completely dismantled or defeated during this time , it became the repository of the memories and myths of old Gaelic Ireland and through its network of hedge schools and colleges in Catholic France and Spain kept the flame alive and was the incubator of what became the push for a seperate Independent Ireland from 1800's onwards. When the free state became independent in the 1920's its not suprising that we became a triumphalist Catholic state for Catholic people and that the North became a more severe protestant mirror image of the same. What has been happening in Ireland , probably since the late 60's but has massively accelerated in last 15 is the untangling of the knot between Catholicism and Irish identity and that it is possible to be one without the other.


"Spiritual" cults and organisations of faith pretty much reflect the mores, taboos and beliefs of their members in the particular region where they were founded , or as in Irelands case , the pagan religions that monotheism supplanted on its arrival - the reason the judaic-christian- islamic faiths are so successful is that they are very good at adapting and fitting in with their host societies prime beliefs - all they really ask is that you stop making sacrifices to the Sun and give lots of love to the Big Dude in the Sky - all the rest of the rules and regulations are up for grabs.

Here in Ireland it meant that the church toned down all that nonsense that This post will be deleted if not edited immediately came out with about criticisms of materialism and the primacy of private property and focused instead on our enduring hangups and physicological disorders relating to sex and all matters to do with it, our attitudes to homosexuality, gender driven issues , sexually deviant behaviour ,child abuse etc etc etc. Even if the Catholic church disappeared tomorrow morning all those issues will still be with us.I believe there is something far deeper there that even prosperity and money won't solve.

It is telling that we are ,in general, bored to death and couldn't give a rats ass about all the tribunals going on into fiduciary and political malfeasance that have plagued this country over the last 30 years. We only get on our high horses when we see a headline about how much it is costing and our primal materialist jealousy kicks in when we see how many bananas the law profession are getting. the conclusions and findings - we'd rather watch the Football. All the rules and laws that we put into place into make our country a better place for the common good - they're just annoying roadblocks when they get in our way when we are doing our own thing - I could have filled 2 garda notebooks on fines and penalties on my way in this morning just observing fellow cyclists disregard for the rules of road. It all adds up , you know , all these little "white" discretions.

But nothing gets our attention like SEX in what ever shape or form. Nothing like sexual crimes to get the blood flowing - nothing like it to get the mob going in the pub calling for death , castration or if possible worse. Nothing like sexual affairs to get the neighbours tut tuting or put the ratings up for a Soap Opera (its shocking , scandalous, disgusting , criminal - show me more- show me more - show me more!). Maybe its just me - but we seem to have (in common with our fellow Anglophones it must be said) a Weekend Binge drinkers attitude to the whole thing - we're either at one end of moral spectrum( piously giving out about the sexualisation of society) or the other (playboy on every shelf, surveys saying the whole country is on the point of collapse due to sexual exhaustion - if you're not getting it least 15 times a week,in as many positions and locations - you're a loser dude!)
Like binge drinking there will consquences for all of this further down the line - maybe this schizo attitude to sexuality is being borne out in the increase of domestic violence, sexual assaults , increased sexual activity among the teen generations etc etc - I dont know

Im Done .Im definitely rambling and I've got to go meet my friendly turf accountant to negotiate exactly how manty sq foot of shirt he is going to be in possession of when my weekend accumulator collapses with Harrington on the last 3 holes on Sunday.

Have a good one

Ed
 
daltonr said:
I agree with you there, it doesn't need to be eradicated, in fact eradicating people right to believe in any given thing would be very bad indeed.
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I personally do believe that humanity would be generally better off if we could eradicate widespread belief in non evidence based mystical mumbo jumo of all sorts. However it's probably better to achieve this through education and enlightenment than through coercion and, ultimately, people should be free to choose.
 
However it's probably better to achieve this through education and enlightenment than through coercion and, ultimately, people should be free to choose.
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Agree with that. You don't want to remove peoples right to be fooled, but if you could eliminate the desire to be fooled everyone would probably be better off.

I think no matter how much you educate though, there are some people who just want to belive. They might even know it's illogical, but it's comforting to them, so whatever. Religions will always cater to such people and releive them of some cash for doing so.

-Rd
 
daltonr said:
I think no matter how much you educate though, there are some people who just want to belive. They might even know it's illogical, but it's comforting to them, so whatever.
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All well and good until their blind faith based beliefs allow them to justify impinging on others - possibly including doing them physical harm. Everything from religious fundamentalist terrorists/warmongers to proponents of quack therapies giving false hope to, and possibly endangering the lives of, the ill and vulnerable.
 
ClubMan said:
I personally do believe that humanity would be generally better off if we could eradicate widespread belief in non evidence based mystical mumbo jumo of all sorts.
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I disagree - belief in the supernatural shows up in all cultures on earth. It would appear to be something beyond culture - and rather evolutionary. In my opinion belief in the supernatural is a necessary trade-off when a species becomes self-aware and thus aware of their own mortality.
 

Richard Dawkins was on the Late Late more or less as you wrote this. Whatever you think of him, most of the reactions texted in were not just negative but also disappointingly insubstantial (as in "how dare this man challenge what we hold dear").
 

Spot on Superman. Awareness of mortality and the associated fear of death. We do our best to duck the issue, "it'll happen to someone else", "ah sure, it won't happen for years yet", "your man was always a reckless driver anyway", "sure he never looked after himself properly" etc. Young people think they are immortal which explains why they drive they way they do, but people typically get a lot more thoughtful as the years roll on. No wonder that people have always looked for certainty and turned to religious explanations in the absence of any credible alternative.

I'm a great admirer of Science not only for the discoveries which have been made but for the rigorous way in which hypotheses are developed and tested. Until such time as Science establishes a workable hypothesis to explain the origin of the Universe, any genuine scientist will tell you that the theory that it's as a result of the intervention of some pretty powerful outside agency is as credible as the theory that there is an infinite number of parallel universes out there - or whatever. It's a fact also that if it were proved that existence ends with death many people would choose not to believe it anyway so religious belief is here to stay folks.
 
derryman said:
The 30 year war was not republican led.
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Many people would say otherwise. And do not forget the IRA / Republican terrorists killed more Catholics than the security forces did.

Besides, it was not a "war". You have been brainwashed by the extremists if you think it was a war. The terrorists on either side did not represent any government or country. The terrorists did not follow the rules of the geneva convention or take prisoners ( or when they did, they usually executed / tortured them eg Jean McColville )
 
I disagree. I personally consider such beliefs in the face of lack of any supporting evidence to be vestigial reminders of our more primitive past. We have a long way to go yet....
 
Um, I think if you go to psychology, you'll find that the belief in the supernatural springs from people's need to understand and find reasons for events - earthquake, death, death of child etc. Fundamentla questions about life that we still haven't found answers for and some for which scientists have found real answers. We don't believe that God shows his displeasure in sending us bad weather anymore.
 
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