Where's The Great Morality Debate In The Tiger Era

[Drapier]

Obviously, monetarily at least, most of us are doing pretty well in the New Ireland over the last 10 years. Yet in the mad adult Treasure Hunt a lot of us are further away from personal and spiritual fulfillment. I think we possibly have not found an adequate replacement for the role the catholic church has played in the life of the country?. And we need a morally acceptable replacement fast. Even Forums Like this, aren't they as much a place to 'connect' and communicate with people about everyday problems. It used to be a lot easier to get this advice in person, from a neighbour, friend or colleague. I feel genuine pity for a lot people in the urban area's where tin pot housing developments have left them in communities without spirit and soul and of course The Bad old Church is no longer a weekly meeting place. There is an nation wide apathy to things that once outraged the nation. Where's this country's Moral Compass or do we need one in the great Celtic Jungle?.
Apologies if on the wrong thread or the Wrong Website!!!

I'm not frequent enough poster to be allowed post a reply on 'Letting OFF Steam' Yet the admin people Put it in there without a giving me a right of reply- I wish they'd have just deleted it. Here's the reply I wanted to post unless of course the admin people get it first and call it 'Spam'....

REPLY
I appreciate the comments and differing points of view. I just wanted to clarify a couple of things because I wrote that piece in a bit of a hurry yesterday. When the word morality is used people assume you are on some sort of crusade or sticking up for the church or Hankering for the supposed good old days. I most certainly am not. Morality for me is simply the ability to differentiate between Right/Wrong. A lot of the time this is personal process but I think a lot of the decisions we face in the new world are collective ones many of which we haven't faced before. Traditionally help to form these kind of decisions came From the Church/Government. It's seems to me we increasingly don't trust these options, which leaves a lot of people in a quandry a about certain decisions.

Some of the horrible examples you cite as to what went on in Ireland while true, Were not morally acceptable then or now, Which is why many of the examples were covered up for years. Turning a Blind eye is not morally acceptting something it's merely sitting on the fence avoiding or fearing to make a decision.
Reflecting on my points about 'connecting' and 'needing an alternative etc they are wide of the mark as some of you have mentioned. I hadn't thought about it in the ways some of you have mentioned. But I suppose through debate comes balanced knowledge sometimes. THe real thing about connecting I guess is that it's easier nowadays not to connect with people as much, because we're not as dependant on each other as we used to be on a day to day basis and also through the technology at our disposal.

Thanks for your time
Drapier

 

[ClubMan]

What do you mean by "spiritual fulfillment"? Sounds very woolly to me. If you mean some form of religious belief then bear in mind that some people not only don't see the need for it but actually consider it a bad thing generally for people to have non evidence based mystical beliefs.

 

[daltonr]

And we need a morally acceptable replacement fast.

It seems to me we already have replaced the church with a *more* morally acceptable alternative. From a morality point of view modern Ireland isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than it was back in the days when it was morally acceptable to:

* Lock up women who gave birth outside of marriage.
(the lucky ones just got shipped away into hiding)
* Abuse children
* Cover up the abuse of children
* Enforce a narrow conserative world view on everyone through
fear and guilt and humiliation.

As recently as a few years ago, a certain well known high ranking member of the clergy claimed on TV that the church were cooperating with gardai investigating one of the many abuse claims. The victim came forward with evidence that they were doing no such thing. The clergy member clarified that he never said they were cooperating *fully* with the investigation.

The history of religion is a story of the church slowly and reluctantly catching up with the improvements in the morals of society in general.
Perhaps someday the church won't consider it a sin to love someone of the same gender, or to use contraceptives, or to believe in a different god, or none at all.

Yes the Catholic church and the religious various orders did some remarkable things in the country in terms of services particularly in health and education, when the state couldn't be bothered, or couldn't afford to.

But it's a big leap from that to assume that the church has been a good role model in how people should live their day to day lives.

Sure let's talk about the moral compass of the nation, perhaps people have become more selfish, perhaps you're less likely to know your neighbour now than you were in the past, perhaps you're likely to spend more on socks than you do on charity.

But let's not try to pretend that the Church ever spoke with any kind of moral authority. As an institution they were greater hypocrites than all the politicians and lawyers combined. And they still are whereever religion flourishes.

If I had control of your schools and had a weekly opportunity to speak to the population of a nation, and I had brainwashed enough of them into thinking that if they didn't do as I say they'd burn for all eternity in hell, then I'm pretty sure I could convince them that pretty much anything was morally acceptable. But that wouldn't mean it was.

It used to be morally acceptable to burn people at the stake, it used to be morally acceptable to gouge the eyes out of a man for daring to look at the bishop, or to cut the tongue out of a man who blasphemed. It used to be morally acceptable to con the dying out of their wealth by promising them a seat on the heaven express.

We've come a long way baby.

-Rd

 

[daltonr]

What do people think about this guys teachings?
I haven't read the book, but it sounds like it might be a laugh.

http://www.amazon.com/Youre-DUMB-BROKE-SMART-HEALTHY/dp/product-description/0470049316

-Rd

 

[ramble]

Morality and religion are not the same thing, nor does religion have a monopoly on moral behaviour. The use of websites like this one is not indicative of a breakdown in either religion or morality, or of community. People tend to have friend/relatives within their own social/professional spheres, this site allows people to communicate with people they may not otherwise have contact with.

A lot of professional people provide no- strings-attached advice on this and other like sites, I could be wrong but I don't think its because they seek spiritual fulfillment in doing so, or because they feel a moral imperative brought on by deep religious feeling.

The decline of "the church" in ireland does not indicate a commensurate decline in moral behaviour, nor is "the church" or any other religion the only "moral compass". Most people are perfectly capable of making sound judgments without the assistance of a man on a cloud with a white beard or whatever you're having yourself.

 

[ClubMan]

And we need a morally acceptable replacement fast.

Why? And matching whose morality exactly?

There is an nation wide apathy to things that once outraged the nation.

Like what? The bishop and the nightie for example?

Where's this country's Moral Compass

Again - whose morality?

 

[SarahMc]

There is an nation wide apathy to things that once outraged the nation

I don't think we are an apathetic nation at all. Witness the anti war marches, the march on the dail after Mr A was set free, just this week the public outcry when the treatment of children with mental health problems was highlighted.

Also volunteerism in Ireland is very high, we've just had a budget that focussed on those those most marginalised, and substantially increased overseas aid. I wouldn't despair of this nation jus yet. Sure, we have entered a new age where our moral compass is not guided by Rome, but I think we are doing fairly well in our adolesence.

 

[ClubMan]

Personally I feel that the phrase "moral compass" is totally meaningless.

 

[almo]

Moral compass smacks too much of the deviants and warmongers in the Christian right in the USA or in Paisley's cabal up north. There will always be good people, bad people, and while the Catholic Church works for some, for others it's trudging to a Junior Championship match in Tallanstown, or to Dalymount for a midtable battle or to the local golf club. What is more pointed to ask, is are the young of today getting enough excercise, being taught well enough, getting enough assistance from their parents. Each set of ideals starts in the simplest unit, the family. It's within the family that we pick up most of what we know and direction.

 

[Purple]

There is an nation wide apathy to things that once outraged the nation.

Like homosexuality or contraception or husbands not being allowed to force their “conjugal rights” on their wives? If so then you are right but I would suggest that this is a good thing. On the other hand raping young children and facilitating the rape of young children on a wide scale institutional level is no longer acceptable. I would suggest that this is a good thing as well.
DaltonR; once again, brilliant.

 

[ubiquitous]

It seems to me we already have replaced the church with a *more* morally acceptable alternative. From a morality point of view modern Ireland isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than it was back in the days when it was morally acceptable to:

* Lock up women who gave birth outside of marriage.
(the lucky ones just got shipped away into hiding)
* Abuse children
* Cover up the abuse of children
* Enforce a narrow conserative world view on everyone through
fear and guilt and humiliation.

...

We've come a long way baby.

Fair enough. However, its just as easy to argue the opposite. One prime example is the increasing public support in this State for Sinn Fein/IRA whose own crimes (up to the very recent past and for all we know maybe up to the present day) surpassed in scale and severity all of the scandals listed above.

 

[bogwarrior]

this support appears to be stalled at 8% or 9% and is (mainly) found in disadvantaged areas which are neglected by the mainstream political parties.
Also, Sinn Fein managed to get TDs elected during the hunger strikes and that was during the height of the Catholics Churchs power here.

One prime example is the increasing public support in this State for Sinn Fein/IRA

 

[casiopea]

Interesting thread.

I dont think OP is trying to advocate the church or trying to say that because we dont go to mass in the droves we did 50 years ago we are not moral. So I think discussions about the wrong doings of the church fall slightly off topic.

I think he's trying to ask what is the "moral compass"/"spiritual belief" of today. I agree with Clubman terms like moral compass are a bit meaningless but I think I can see the OP's question. Spirituality doesnt have to be a God, (I am open to correction), but certainly a belief structure doesnt have to be a God (it could be sport for example!).

I think the OP has a valid question. What is the common (I say common as obviously not everyone believes the same thing) belief structure today that you would want to pass onto your children? And how can/does the community support you in that.

One thing I am sorry to see in "New" Ireland is the way Sunday has just become another day. I believe before, even for non-church goers/believers, Sunday was a day of relaxation, catching up with family, going for a walk in the mountains or beach. I know I can rest still if I want to, but invariably shopping and other activities get postponed till Sunday. Also as a result Traffic is also terrible now on Sunday.

 

[ubiquitous]

this support appears to be stalled at 8% or 9% .

I wonder... Gerry Adams is regularly touted in our mainstream media as being one of our most popular political leaders - even though he doesn't even live here.

...and is (mainly) found in disadvantaged areas which are neglected by the mainstream political parties.

To some extent perhaps but they also have TD's in places like Kerry, Cavan/Monaghan & Louth that are neither disadvantaged nor neglected.

Also, Sinn Fein managed to get TDs elected during the hunger strikes and that was during the height of the Catholics Churchs power here.

I would regard this as a failure of the Catholics Churchs power more than anything else after the IRA had snubbed the Pope in 1979 after he renounced their campaign of violence.

 

[ClubMan]

while the Catholic Church works for some, for others it's trudging to a Junior Championship match in Tallanstown, or to Dalymount for a midtable battle

Yes - that is the cross that I must bear I'm afraid...

 

[ClubMan]

One prime example is the increasing public support in this State for Sinn Fein/IRA whose own crimes (up to the very recent past and for all we know maybe up to the present day) surpassed in scale and severity all of the scandals listed above.

I didn't think that their support was still increasing and that it had actually peaked at around 10% for a good while now?

 

[bogwarrior]

To some extent perhaps but they also have TD's in places like Kerry, Cavan/Monaghan & Louth that are neither disadvantaged nor neglected.

Cavan/Monaghan and Louth were the two constituencies who voted in hunger stike candidates back in the day. I suppose I should have said Sinn Feins main strongholds are disadvantaged areas and traditional republican areas (border counties and north Kerry for example).
I just don't see David McWilliams 'Popes children' i.e. the non church going (except on First Communion/Confirmation), middle-class suburb dwelling people voting en masse for Sinn Fein.

Unfortunatly though, with our political system, 8 or 9% of the vote can get you into government.

I would regard this as a failure of the Catholics Churchs power more than anything else after the IRA had snubbed the Pope in 1979 after he renounced their campaign of violence.

Fair point, hadn't thought of it that way.

 

[ClubMan]

Unfortunatly though, with our political system, 8 or 9% of the vote can get you into government.

Don't worry - all of the main political parties in the Republic are against sharing power with SF even if they believe that this is precisely what the DUP should do up north!

 

[daltonr]

Fair enough. However, its just as easy to argue the opposite. One prime example is the increasing public support in this State for Sinn Fein/IRA whose own crimes (up to the very recent past and for all we know maybe up to the present day) surpassed in scale and severity all of the scandals listed above.

I thought about the IRA when I was talking about "The good old days", and I actually had to stop and think, who terrorised the people of the Republic of Ireland more, the Catholic Church, or the IRA? Now there's a controversial thought. And probably not a good one to explore too deeply.

I dont think OP is trying to advocate the church or trying to say that because we dont go to mass in the droves we did 50 years ago we are not moral. So I think discussions about the wrong doings of the church fall slightly off topic.

The original poster said that the decline of the catholic church had left some sort of moral gap that needed to be filled. My point is that the decline of the church is caused by an improvement in morals, not a decline in them.

The only objective measure of the morality of a nation is it's laws, and how it treats it's citizens. Are those with mental illness given the treatment and dignity they deserve? Etc.

Now the the Church's ability to write Irish Laws has been weakened some low hanging fruit has been picked and the so called "liberal agenda" has delivered some improvements (in my opinion) in the morals of the nation. But there's more to do.

When people talk about a breakdown in society or morals I don't think they're talking about these national questions. I think they're talking about kids hanging around in large groups causing trouble, a general move towards materialism, more insulated lives where you don't know your neighbour. (just as a few examples)

I don't know that any of these things reflect a change in the national psyche. Kids hang around in groups because we build thousands of houses and don't bother providing services, people become more materialistic because billions of dollars and euro are spent brainwashing them into being super-consumers. Lives become more insulated (at the local level) because everyone has a car and they can choose where they socialise and with whom, in the past the only social outlet was the local pup, or a house where people got together for music, cards etc.

I'd like to know what prompted the original poster to ask this question.
I'm curious about references to spirituality etc. It seems this thread might be more about feeling right than doing right.

Perhaps the original poster has a general feeling of emptiness in themselves and is seeking some kind of fulfillment, and is wondering if the rest of us feel the same.

Or perhaps they have found fulfillment and they wonder why the rest of us don't give up our materialistic ways and seek fulfillment too.

The thing is we won't all find fulfillment in the same place, which is the fundamental flaw in Religions. For some the material posesions are fulfilling. If you've got the money and it makes you happy then spend yourself to happiness.

For some happiness will come from volunteering, for others it'll be a hobby, like gardening, stamps, photography, music. For some happiness will be a poker game once a week. For some it'll be a classic Black and White movie and a bottle of wine. For some fullfillment will be spending time with their kids or their spouse.

Keep an eye on national issues and vote with your conscience, but the best thing you can do to improve the world is raise your kids properly and find out what makes you happy.

It's not a coincidence that most major religions have at their heart pretty much the same golden rules, even though the religions developed in isolation from each other. Humans generally have a common sense about what's right and wrong. You sholdn't need a religion or anyone else to tell you the rules.

-Rd

 

[ubiquitous]

I thought about the IRA when I was talking about "The good old days", and I actually had to stop and think, who terrorised the people of the Republic of Ireland more, the Catholic Church, or the IRA? Now there's a controversial thought. And probably not a good one to explore too deeply.

Indeed... if we have got to a stage where the faults of the Catholic Church in this country can be conflated with the murder of 1,800 people; the mutilation, crippling and blinding of thousands of others; the economic strangulation of an entire island; and the deliberate and calculated breeding of naked sectarian hatred; all achieved within the space of a generation; then it doesn't say a lot for our collective "moral compass" in Tiger Era or Post-Tiger Era Ireland...