When is a murder not a murder ?

Re: ...

Well, some people are a bit slow to catch on! Thats life!!

Re: grades of crime

Tommy, Rabbit you are so right - I was nearly falling for the Purple line that if these people thought they were killing an informer that it somehow diminished their guilt.

Here is the correct moral assessmant per Madonna:

To kill a garda in the heat of a botched bank raid is a crime to be sure, worse than manslaughter because they were prepared to kill but less than first degree murder because they didn't intend to kill.

To kill a woman in cold blood because they thought she was reporting crimes to the police is a heinous atrocity of the very first degree on two fronts - first its premeditation and second the very motive is a threat to our society.

Re: ...

The British Government is ultimately responsible for the re-creation of the IRA. Handed over power to the Unionists who abused that power.

The blame game gets us nowhere. History is history and
everyone knows mistakes were made.

One question: If neither the U.S. nor the British governments can control the despicable behaviour of some of their troops in Iraq, (not forgetting Guantanamo Bay), how can either Sinn Fein or I.R.A. control their members? There
will always be mercenaries and opportunists.

Iraqi citizens are being murdered every day in the name of an illegal war. Or maybe that's OK? It has official sanction.

Even if Sinn Fein is only supported by 10% of the population
here, don't you think Bertie has done his sums in advance of
the next election? Retention of power is everything in politics. Moderate language and not stirring the pot is the road to peace. We have peace, why is that not enough? General de Chastelain needs to be brought back.

Re: ...

One question: If neither the U.S. nor the British governments can control the despicable behaviour of some of their troops in Iraq, (not forgetting Guantanamo Bay), how can either Sinn Fein or I.R.A. control their members?

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One answer, the US/British governments are shocked and have condemned and indeed convicted the perpetrators. SFIRA excuses and refuses to condemn its members.

Re: ...

Sorry Madonna but thats an over simplification.

There is every indication - and I suspect its completely true - that 'higher ranks' all the way up to Rumsfeld encouraged the maltreatment of Iraqi prisoners. After all, we're talking about the very same people who set up and still support Guantanamo Bay.
The people they punished were low level pawns, scapegoats for the senior brass.

Re: ...

There is a big difference between the IRAs behaviour re Jean McConville and numerous others, and the abuses perpertrated by a very small percentage of the ( 100,000 ? ) soldiers in Iraq. The UK and US armies in Iraq have disciplined / are disciplining those soldiers who abused prisioners.

Has the IRA even admitted Jean McConvilles murder is a crime, let alone reprimand those responsible ? No

Re: ...

Tharggy, a bit early for you! You may be right, though I don't think so. In any case Sherib obviously doesn't think so, hence the question, and it was her question that I was answering.

Re: ...

We have peace, why is that not enough?

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There are a number of people Resting In Peace (Killed since the Good Friday Agreement). There are many many others who have been shot in the hands, knees and/or ankles by both sides in the conflict (Including the IRA who are supposedly on ceasefire).

The Good Friday Agreement didn't deliver Peace, it delivered a picture of what peace could be if we could get the thugs to stop their thuggery and the political leaders to start leading.

That's why the current "peace" as you call it isn't enough.

-Rd

Re: ...

Madonna, there are numerous other examples where both the British and American governments have given their personnel the nod and wink to apply 'a little extra persuasion' to suspects.

If those personnel then go too far (as happened in Abu Ghraib) or their methods are publicised and cause embarrassment (as happened in Castlereagh interrogation centre) the top brass always make sure to maintain 'plausible deniability'.

One way to ensure that is to publicly lay the entire blame at the feet of the minions, and punish them suitably.
It does not mean the minions are entirely to blame, or even that their misbehaviour is all that unusual. Its the symptom of a certain type of 'management' culture.

Re: ...

As of now only one party in Ireland seems to be claiming the right to decide who should be executed or not. I think it's fair to say that that should preclude them from holding cabinet seats.

If they don't recognise the Dail, the Gardai, the Army and the other institutions of the state then you'd have to ask why they are so keen to get Dail seats.

I'm delighted to see the mask finally starting to slip. We have all known their attitude to "executions" etc. They have managed to keep those views quit to an extent, i.e, when they canvass you for a vote in Dublin they don't mention that the IRA is the legitimate Army of the state.

But as they get sucked more into the political process it gets harder for them to separate these views from the process of getting votes.

Let's get them on our screens as much as possible, let's push them to answer the questions they've spent 30 years equivocating over and then lets see where they stand in terms of support in the Republic.

The Northern Bank Raid may well prove to have been the single most important step forward in resolving the Irish Question since the Good Friday Agreement was signed. In fact it may prove to me more important.

-Rd

Re: ...

There is substance to almost everything written already.

The sad reality is that the two main political parties in
Northern Ireland are diametrically opposite. "No surrender"
on both sides. However, these are the politicans voted into
power by both communities. David Trimble was coming around
but the majority up there voted his party out.

Both sides have a lot of of forgiving to do.

Elected representatives should get on
with it and not be allowed to continue stone-walling.

And who can dispute the bitterness and hatred on the face of
the Rev. Dr. Ian Paisley. Poor man, he doesn't look well.
But then it can't be easy for 'Loyalists' to relinquish the right
to triumphally strut their stuff. Until it was televised so the world could see.

What is a Taig - a term of endearment?

How newsworthy will be the next bank robbery down here
or actions of criminals? Will it bring down Dail Eireann?
I think not, nor should it. :rolleyes

PS I see they're all still invited to the White House for
17th March. Guess who won't go?

Re: Aplogies to Mitch

I thought Mitch was refusing to say JMcC's murder was a crime because it was done by the IRA. Apparently Mitch when asked on radio if that bank robbery was a crime said no it was not. Since Mitch believes the IRA denial it would seem that I was wrong, he simply sets everyone very stiff criteria to be able to claim they committed a crime.

Re: Letter from Andytown

Just back from one of my periodic visits to Andytown. Opinion has hardened in favour of the Shinners whom they perceive as being demonised. As far as most A'town folk are concerned robbing Protestant banks to fund the cause and vigilante activity against anti social thugs is to be applauded. To be fair to them, both Governments have turned a blind eye to this activity and it wasn't till SuperMac got in on the act that the hypocrisy was exposed.

The Free State media is gloating at SFIRA's discomfiture. So far as NIRCs are concerned the media are seriously missing the plot - Shinners go from strength to strength.

I don't know the people of Ballyfermot, Finglas, Coolock, Cabra etc., maybe someone can comment whether the latest shenanigans are enhancing or detracting from SFIRA's appeal to those communities.

Re: Letter from Andytown

I can comment on one of the areas mentioned! Finglas!
No-one cares if they did the bank job! The audacity of it would probably get them more votes. Dont know of any vigilante activity in Finglas but i know for sure that people would send donations if certain scum were dealt with! The Gardai run away from filth in our area!
Apparently one of the Keane gang is living here. The Garda are happy to know who's doing it but they fail to act! Maybe its due to lack of resources but they could make life difficult for the dirt but they dont.
I seen a couple of people getting mugged at knifpoint for phones and went straight up to the station with the info! The gang were organised as they had a couple of blokes in a car watching and waiting to drive the muggers away. Got a reg and everything. Garda in station took all the info on a piece of scrap paper which i'd say he threw in the bin! Not a flicker of interest in it! No phone call to say that they got them or whatever!

Re: Letter from Andytown

> I can comment on one of the areas mentioned! Finglas!
No-one cares if they did the bank job! The audacity of it would probably get them more votes.


This is one of the main reasons this country needs to start educating its electorate...so that areas of the country which are generally perceived as being under privelaged and rife with crime do not fall under Sinn Fein's spell. They prey on these areas in particular.
If you want murdering, thieving scum in government then give these people more votes. If you want democracy then never vote SF.

Re: Letter from Andytown

If the government did the right thing and did educate properly they'd be f***ed because the people would see our government for exactly what they are! Murdering thieving scum (all crime is a result of bad government ,so the buck stop with them).
They're too busy with brown envelopes and land deals to see the country is a ticking timebomb!