What was so wrong with having Cafe-bars? Publicans win again.

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Darth Vader

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It was announced today that the Minister has backed down from his proposals to bring in so-called Cafe Bars whcih he had touted as a method of changing the culture of binge drinking in this country. As the Minister does not back down very often it has been suggested that there was huge pressure applied on the Government by the Publicans, who were aghast at the prospect of losing their very lucrative cartel on drinking in this country. Their argument being that cafe-bars would lead to more abuse of alcohol as it would result in alcohol being more readily available. The people of Ireland not being responsible enough to make their own decision on this matter, it would appear.

The problem with abuse of alcohol in this country is made all the worse by a few easily identified areas such as 1. The sky high price of soft drinks in a bar. Where is the logic in this? The publicans make huge profits on soft drinks leaving people who are not drinking alcohol for the night paying almost as much for a night out as those that are.
2. The closing hours of our pubs / niteclubs with people rushing to the bar before last orders, encouraging people to drink large volumes in a short space of time as the pubs etc close at a ridiculously early hour.

I think the cafe- bar would have been a step forward in changing peoples attitude to alcohol in this country and i am very disappointed that the Government were intimidated and allowed themselves to be bullied by the Publicans.
 
I don't see a major problem with what the publicans did, after all the average price of a pub license is €175k, this move would have surely devalued their licenses and affected their trade. They lobbied the government to stop cafe's opening that were essentially the same as pubs. That is what vested interests do, protect their own interests.

I do have a major problem with our FF led government which has now caved into the vested interests twice on major issues, Dublin airport and the Vintners. I think people are getting very annoyed about the way some sectors are allowed push our government around and wield an influence that is disproportionate to their status in this country e.g. Gardai, public service unions, Vintners.

If there was as powerful lobby groups in the health service the government might have accomplished something there maybe.
Peadar
 
If there was as powerful lobby groups in the health service the government might have accomplished something there maybe.
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Hi Peader, while I agree with your general sentiment I would suggest that it is the existence of powerful (self interest) lobby groups in the health service, such as the consultants and INO, that are stopping the government from accomplishing anything there.
 
I agree with you Purple, maybe i should have added consultants to the list of lobby groups with too much power. I suppose it is too much wishful thinking to imagine of a powerful lobby group lobbying for the greater good..

Interesting point made in the Irish Independent this morning about FF backbenchers. It's amazing that it's over something as trivial as cafe bars that they would threaten to vote against the government with, not something that would be in the national interest. Health, Education etc.
 
Have to say I'm very annoyed by this one - how can the PDs come out and say that this is anything other than a climbdown on their original stance?

So now I can get a proper pint in all restaurants? Big deal cos generally you can get a bottle of beer in anyway and the fact that you now have a wider choice of beer is not going to change lifestyles. And in decent restaurants people are going to keep drinking wine with meals anyways.

Cafe-bars would be a major shift as you could sit around and relax and have a beer as if in a pub - more informal than a restaurant, and good have a few beers aswell. I like the idea of a nice summers day spent in an outside terrace of a cafe-bar with a nice long drawn out meal like tapas or something along with a few beers and just chilling out - I think I'd drink less in this scenarion but it would be just as enjoyable and more civilized.

Yeh you can't blame the publicans for fighting to protect their cartel but you can damn well blame the government for caving into them. Cannot believe McDowell has let himself be made look like such a fool.

Fianna Fail - pay em a few quid and theyll let you lobby them, make a few moans and threaten a strike and theyll do whatever your union says, and then shout loudest to protect your vested interests and theyll accommodate you at the expense of the greater good. That they can listen to backbenchers who are publicans themselves is laughable.

The devaluation of the licenses point is irrelevant IMO - competition is good for the consumer and it is the good of the majority and not the minority that should concern the government. Like taxi licenses just because the few stand to lose a few quid (in this case out of publican's massive profits) the many should not lose out. And it is also quite probable that cafe bars would actually generate extra revenue to offset the loss in the artificial license value.
 
Every interest group, be they doctors, nurses, teachers, employers, farmers or publicans will represent the interests of their members. That is right and proper as that is what they are paid to do. The consultants lobby group are only interested in patients as long as it doesn't interfere with their pay and conditions, the same it true for the nurses unions. The same can be said for teachers unions and the education system etc. That is why when the teachers come out complaining about conditions for the children and nurses come out complaining about conditions for patients in A&E their comments should be seen in the context of the primary agenda of their respective lobby groups. The same can be said for business organisations, lawyers, taxi drivers etc when they supposedly champion the rights etc of their clients.

The only group that is paid to look after the interests of the general public and nothing else are the elected members of the Dail. The problem is that they are only one of many groups that make the decisions in this country.
 
As Jake Stephens of Naked Camera said once "Free trade my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language"!
This country has been run by the cartels for too long.


Anakin has it right here in why theres so much trouble after the pub closes!

Darth Vader said:
2. The closing hours of our pubs / niteclubs with people rushing to the bar before last orders, encouraging people to drink large volumes in a short space of time as the pubs etc close at a ridiculously early hour.
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OMG and what happened to the smoking ban,,,,,,, what happened to the interest groups there ......???? what happened to the pressure there please explain that one ....

I must say that I am happy to see the decision overturned so that in a warm summer day instead of sitting on our bumbs in some cafe we might go for a relaxing walk ..


why does limited access to drink make us want to less off steam ....


and ya like we have a responsible attudide to drink so why is there still a problem with drink driving
 
I think that there is a common theme in all these issues - the PDs are positioning themselves as the advocate of the ordinary consumer while FF are seen as stalling progress at the behest of interest groups. I suspect that what has happened so far on the airport and on cafe bars will be replicated on the health service with Mary Harney attempting to introduce reforms but being frustrated by a consultant- or unions-influenced FF. Eventually the PDs will pull out of government and FF will be painted as the bad guys. Unless FF somehow regain the tag of being on the side of the small guy, they will get a roasting at the next election. We could yet see an FG/Labour/PD/Green government, strange as it may sound.
 
ubiquitous said:
We could yet see an FG/Labour/PD/Green government, strange as it may sound.
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As a Labour member, I think it is extremely unlikely that Labour would end up in bed with the PD's or SF after the next election. Anyone else is not beyond the bounds of possibility, but not those guys.
 
I agree with you, ubiquitous. I don't know how Fianna Fail can say they are running the country when they can't even make a single hard decision. It is the civil servants and vested interests that run the country, and I fear this will not change no matter who we vote into power. But at this stage I am willing to support anyone who has the guts to stand up and take a tough decision. In politics it seems that whenever the question is asked as to who can take a tough decision everyone else steps back leaving one or two heads to roll.
 
I have to admit I liked the idea of cafe bars, but in reality wouldnt they just turn into pubs? On the continent these cafe bars have terraces or spill out onto the streets, but they have the weather to go with that scene. We dont. So what would be the difference between a cafe and a pub? Cause we'd end up indoors for 99% of the time anyway- so what would be the difference? The furniture? The fact that snacks would be available or coffee?

If I were a publican, and had to pay for my premises and licence, I wouldnt be happy with licences being given freely to cafe- bars which would effectively be the same thing anyway.
 
RainyDay said:
As a Labour member, I think it is extremely unlikely that Labour would end up in bed with the PD's or SF after the next election. Anyone else is not beyond the bounds of possibility, but not those guys.
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I can understand your dislike of SF but what's the problem with the PDs?
 
ubiquitous said:
I can understand your dislike of SF but what's the problem with the PDs?
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Sorrt to dissapoint you all but the issue here is not about increasing the amount of outlets for us to visit.FACT binge drinking is and always has been an Irish condition .The old adage Dont go drinking on an empty head unfortunatly runs through ,old habits die hard and the inheritance of bad practises witnessed over the years only compound this problem.Go to any a&e dept of any hospital at any week end and witness the antics of our so called party people and see the results.Get with it folks us Irish are an embarassment to say the least in relation to our use / behavior and mentality when it comes to the gargle.Our european compatriots laugh not with us but at us on witnessing this pigs in the parlour syndrome that has for us become a proud badge to wear.Education is the only way foreward where people should be taught the basic skills needed to control alcohol consumption and unsocial behavior. Dont blame the politicians or the publicans ,the fault lies entirley on ourselves ,so forget about adding extra drinking dens ,just wake up and smell the pints !!!!!!! sorry coffee
 
Why is everyone presuming that our Euro neighbours are so respectable when it comes to socialising? There is no argument that they don't drink as much as us, but they too have their own vice. They smoke like trains.

It annoys me when people refer to Irish people in derogatory way while putting the rest of Europe on a pedestal. Like us they have their own vices that are done to excess.
 
Indeed some European countries (Germany and Poland for example) are notorious for heavy drinking.
 
Yeah Wiggles it annoyed me too when recently I had the unfortunate experiance of visiting the a&e department in the mater hospital with my wife who had been in a car crash .My heart goes out to all the nursing staff who every other week end have to put up with babysitting these drunken idiots (male and female included )not to mention agressive / rude behavior,and most important of all wasting valuable time and resources.Maybe as you dont like cigarette smoke you should take a stroll down temple bar and take in some fresh air if you can avoid the piles of vomit and lakes of urine that lie at at every street corner.Dont come all nationalistic on us with the" Poor Irish getting slagged off again " mentality you know what they say The truth always hurts !!!!!. after all what we are talking about here is not the actions of schoolchildren but the behavior of a large percentage of the irish (so called ) adult population
 
40coats said:
Yeah Wiggles it annoyed me too when recently I had the unfortunate experiance of visiting the a&e department in the mater hospital with my wife who had been in a car crash .My heart goes out to all the nursing staff who every other week end have to put up with babysitting these drunken idiots (male and female included )not to mention agressive / rude behavior,and most important of all wasting valuable time and resources.Maybe as you dont like cigarette smoke you should take a stroll down temple bar and take in some fresh air if you can avoid the piles of vomit and lakes of urine that lie at at every street corner.Dont come all nationalistic on us with the" Poor Irish getting slagged off again " mentality you know what they say The truth always hurts !!!!!. after all what we are talking about here is not the actions of schoolchildren but the behavior of a large percentage of the irish (so called ) adult population
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Lakes of urine and piles of vomit??? The last time I checked Temple bar was full of tourists.

A&E does come under strain and that is a bad thing. But there will always be a small number of people that go a bit to far, but I don't accept it is a large percentage of the population.
 
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