What is the legality of copying a sample plan provided by Architect.

[seanistaken]

Embarking on a self-build next year. I have met with a number of architects. A couple of them have supplied me with basic plans of houses they have designed in the past, this was done by them to provide me with a sample of their work.

What is the legality of us taking one of these plans, changing it very slightly and going to an Architectural Technician and getting it drawn up? For the sake of keeping this discussion focussed I am not asking about the morality of this course of action, just the legality.

Some additional possibly relevant details. The plans supplied were unsolicited. They are A 4 size and feature just the floor plan, no measurements or views of the outside. We have however seen the house itself which allows us to fill in some of the blanks.

 

[Leo]

Architects usually have copyright on their work, any such reference on the documents you were provided with?

 

[bk01]

Copyright rest at all times with the Designer and it is illegal to copy any drawings without express permission from the designer.

 

[seanistaken]

Architects usually have copyright on their work, any such reference on the documents you were provided with?

There is no mention of copyright on the documents I have.

I know I am getting into a grey area which might not be suitable for this forum, but to what degree would the plans have to be changed in order to avoid copyright infringement? I am not sure how you would even answer that question to be honest but its the question that springs to mind.

The intention is not to supply any plan from an Architect to the Technician but to use them as the basis for plans which I would hand-draw and supply to the Architect, with minor changes.

 

[Jim2007]

There is no mention of copyright on the documents I have.

Copyright is automatic on all original works, there is no need for it to be stated on the documents!

I know I am getting into a grey area which might not be suitable for this forum, but to what degree would the plans have to be changed in order to avoid copyright infringement? I am not sure how you would even answer that question to be honest but its the question that springs to mind.

There is nothing grey about it! If it is not your original work, then it is breach of copyright end of story.

 

[seanistaken]

Thanks for all the replies. Fairly unambiguous consensus. Glad I know now...

 

[Docarch]

Why would you not approach the architect and ask could you buy a set of his/her plans for the house in question - in essence to use their plans under license. Then go with these plans to your AT to re-work, do your planning, etc., etc.

Architect may be happy to sell you a set of plans for a small/reasonable sum. They have already done the plans/been paid for them so could be a bonus for them to get a few extra euro?

 

[seanistaken]

Thanks for the suggestion Docarch. I fear that they may not wish to release the plans but it's appears its the only option open to me.

 

[seanistaken]

I know I will get the answer when I ask the arch. But has anyone else heard of them selling copies of existing plans?

The full story is that I want a house very similar to one they have already designed. I don't have the budget to have them design a house from scratch, even if I did I would want it to be so similar to the existing plans that it would be a waste of their time and my money.

Getting a licence or permission of some sort to use the plans would seem an ideal compromise, for me anyway.

 

[Mooples]

I'm currently discussing our build with an architect and he was going through pricing options with me.

He mentioned that if they had already drawn up plans that were similar to what we wanted, then it would be a lot cheaper than getting bespoke plans drawn up from scratch. He didn't give an exact figure but he brought it up, not me, so I'm guessing it is quite common practice and worth asking about. I'm sure he'd be happy to help you out.

 

[Complainer]

Who do you plan to sue when you find that your house isn't level, or isn't safe in case of fire?

 

[seanistaken]

I'm currently discussing our build with an architect and he was going through pricing options with me.

He mentioned that if they had already drawn up plans that were similar to what we wanted, then it would be a lot cheaper than getting bespoke plans drawn up from scratch. He didn't give an exact figure but he brought it up, not me, so I'm guessing it is quite common practice and worth asking about. I'm sure he'd be happy to help you out.

That's very encouraging. Thanks for letting me know.

 

[seanistaken]

Who do you plan to sue when you find that your house isn't level, or isn't safe in case of fire?

I don't understand what you are implying. Are you saying that repurposing plans is risky or that no one will be accountable using this approach? Or are you saying something else?

 

[Slim]

I don't understand what you are implying. Are you saying that repurposing plans is risky or that no one will be accountable using this approach? Or are you saying something else?

I understand exactly where you are coming from. We got a plan we liked in a plan design book and gave it to a friend with our own requirements. Friend drew up plans at a fraction of the cost of an architect. Long story short, a few inconsistencies in measurements arose, and had to be sorted out by me, not technical at all, finishes were not so good, no great snagging process. Heel of the hunt, sorry I did not hire the meanest nastiest architect around, even if it cost 5 times the friend's cost.

I do not think the copying of the plan can be traced and lots do it from plan books. Not every new house is 'designed' afresh by an architect. There are only so many configurations you can have in a regular house.

 

[seanistaken]

I understand exactly where you are coming from. We got a plan we liked in a plan design book and gave it to a friend with our own requirements. Friend drew up plans at a fraction of the cost of an architect. Long story short, a few inconsistencies in measurements arose, and had to be sorted out by me, not technical at all, finishes were not so good, no great snagging process. Heel of the hunt, sorry I did not hire the meanest nastiest architect around, even if it cost 5 times the friend's cost.

I do not think the copying of the plan can be traced and lots do it from plan books. Not every new house is 'designed' afresh by an architect. There are only so many configurations you can have in a regular house.

I understand there are risks, I had intended in using a qualified and experienced arch technician though. I guess my question has changed to 'What do you do if you want to use an architects existing plan?'

I know the answer is 'Ask them. Can I use it and if so for how much? And what if any restrictions are you placing on its use?'.

I have a feeling that they may not want to have their work used in this way, but we will see.

 

[rayn]

Who (what professional) confirmed compliance with Planning and Fire Regulations.?
As I understand it this is required for loan approval?
Best to negotiate with Architect or Engineer for x number of inspections and issuing certificate of compliance as above.

 

[Docarch]

I think people are possibly confusing things a little as to the OPs query?

The OP just wants a copy of the plans.

If the original architect was to sell the OP a set of plans, they are only likely to be a complete set of the design plans (plans, sections and elevations), and, I would suggest not tender construction drawings, because Building Regulations have most likely changed since the house was built.

If the original architect was happy to sell the OP a set of the design plans, I'm pretty sure they would come with a disclaimer, that the OP might have to sign, basically stating that it would be OP's responsibilty to prepare his own planning drawings, tender/construction drawings and generally satisfy himself that (current) Building Regulations are complied with, etc., etc.

OP then employs his own AT and/or engineer to take the original design plans as simply a template and then, from these, do planning drawings, apply for planning permission, prepare tender/construction drawings, oversee construction, certify, etc., etc.

I'm pretty sure this is what the OP intends to do?

 

[David_Dublin]

We have drawings we like. They are not "technical drawings" per se, they are on two sheets of large paper, a suggestion of what we should build, with some elevations and outline measurements, but more coloured in look & feel for the outside, and internal layout & space. I dont know what type of drawing you would call them. We asked her to draw them to give us some ideas for what we would build when we have the money.

We paid good money for them. Whatever the legality of it, I would have no issue with using them as ideas for what we end up going with. I will definitely use an architect, but it may not be the girl who did up the original drawings. If we can afford what she suggested, what we will do will be a very close match to what she was suggesting. I dont remember any explicit agreement regarding ownership or copyright. But I would have no hesitation in using them, or letting another architect see them to help them visualise someone elses plans that we like. It's an interesting discussion!

 

[Docarch]

I dont remember any explicit agreement regarding ownership or copyright.

Copyright is pretty much implicit.

But.....the difference is that if you paid somebody to draw up plans for you, and/or agreed and paid for somebody to draw up plans for you to a certain level, then you pretty much have in effect a license to use those plans as you like.

The difference is that the OP is suggesting that he would like to copy/use plans that were not drawn for him without the consent of the person who drew up the plans (or indeed the person who paid for the plans!).

You see the difference?

 

[seanistaken]

I think people are possibly confusing things a little as to the OPs query?

The OP just wants a copy of the plans.

If the original architect was to sell the OP a set of plans, they are only likely to be a complete set of the design plans (plans, sections and elevations), and, I would suggest not tender construction drawings, because Building Regulations have most likely changed since the house was built.

If the original architect was happy to sell the OP a set of the design plans, I'm pretty sure they would come with a disclaimer, that the OP might have to sign, basically stating that it would be OP's responsibilty to prepare his own planning drawings, tender/construction drawings and generally satisfy himself that (current) Building Regulations are complied with, etc., etc.

OP then employs his own AT and/or engineer to take the original design plans as simply a template and then, from these, do planning drawings, apply for planning permission, prepare tender/construction drawings, oversee construction, certify, etc., etc.

I'm pretty sure this is what the OP intends to do?

Docarch, this is precisely what I would hope to do. I am not even necessarily looking for a full set of plans or detailed drawings. I have enough information to supply to the arch tech at this stage. I was just concerned that this would not be legal, even if I were not to supply them with a copy of the floorplan that I do have, but instead used it has the inspiration/basic for my own drawings!

It's complicated..