What does one have to do to get convicted of Murder?

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dereko1969

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With the unbelievable suspended sentence handed down to a woman
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0217/brennanm.html
who deliberately brought a knife with her to a party and then killed her brother with it - how can murder convictions be achieved in this country?

Obviously I've not been in court to hear the full evidence but it just seems to me amazing the number of manslaughter convictions achieved where pre-meditation was involved.
 
She claimed she brought the knife to the party for 'protection'. Id have to wonder why she went to the party at all if she felt she needed a knife on her there for protection!!
 
I've been saying this for years now (I don't have a link sorry)

The justice system in this country just doesn't seem to work with suspended sentences, plea bargains and concern for the rights of the accused far outweighing any notions of justice or punishments fitting crimes.

The manslaughter verdict given against the man who, along with a gang of mates, dragged an Estonian man from his car and beat him to death at Dublin airport a few months back is another example of the shambles our justice system is in.
 
I agree. It was reported on the news last night that a man got a manslaughter sentence for stabbing a woman 6 times in the back!!!!

I mean, how is beating somebody's head to a pulp with a brick or stabbing somebody six times from behind (so they obviously couldn't defend themselves) or bringing a steak knife to a party and then killing somebody with it MANSLAUGHTER???? I may have americanised idea of justice in my head but to me manslaughter is 100% accidental, 100% unintentional and just very unfortunate way of causing somebody's death, sort of wrong place / wrong time scenario.

With so much blood crime around us, legal definitions of murder and manslaughter should be urgently reviewed and adjusted to suit the times we live in.
 
Our legal system is heavily weighed in favour of the perpetrator of crime. There seems to be an over determination and compensation to ensure that the accused gets a fair trial. This seems to be the case for all aspects of the legal system. Victims, especially dead victims, have an uphill task in proving the crime as well as protecting their good character. The case of the Murphy killing outside the Burlington springs to mind as well as the Holahan case in Cork. Even in cases of unfair dismissal, it is extremely difficult for an employee to get fair treatment.
 
When you have a case where the judge instruct for a unanimous verdict and then tell the jury that they will accept a manslaughter if the jury thinks this or that or the other, isn't this just the judge giving the jury 5 ways to say guilty and very little to say innocent?
 
carpedeum said:
Our legal system is heavily weighed in favour of the perpetrator of crime.
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It can be frustrating for the victim, it can lead to some questionable decisions. But, here's a small sample of why it must remain so:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/victim-of-wrongful-conviction-in-sex-case-to-seek-euro1m-damages-1721464.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2009/0526/1224247402072.html
http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2745&Itemid=10333&ed=257
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/falsely-accused-priest-highlights-abuse-dilemma-892574.html

There but for the grace of god and all that.

Remember, the accusation could lead to complete loss of liberty and the entire future of the individual accused. It's only right that with such penalties resting on it, there is a very high standard attached to proving the case.
 
I think you're muddying the waters there LATRADE. I know you're replying specifically to carpedeum's point but to me that's bringing this off-topic.
I'm talking about cases where there isn't a doubt really as to who actually committed the crime just whether there was malice aforethough and what makes it murder as opposed to manslaughter.
Where someone deliberately brings a knife to a party, to me that's murder.
Where someone batters their wife about the head 3 TIMES, that's murder.
Where someone stabs someone in the back 6 TIMES, that's murder.
There seem to be so many cases where I think the Jury fails the people by going with manslaughter rather than murder.
 
All of those cases you linked relate to either the victim or the authorities (in the Maguire case) baldly lying in court

Where the actual justice system itself is heavily weighed in favour of the accused, once found guilty, the sentence must fit the crime.

You cannot have a situation where a judge can't issue a long custodial sentence on the off-chnace that the guilty party may actually be innocent.

Otherwise it makes a mockery of the whole system if a guilty verdict cannot be relied on.
 

It isn't muddying the waters at all. The statement was the justice system is weighted to the accused. It is and it should be. I've been a victim of crime and seen the accused get away lightly and still I wouldn't change a thing.

Sitting from the outside and only getting media reports of the key events it's easy to make a judgement. In fact, because of media reporting most people have already made up their minds the accused is guilty.

You cannot condense any court case down to one sentence and base a judgement on that.

Do I disagree with the decision in light of what has been presented in the press? Yes. But with the caveat that we haven't been presented with the full information. Can I see the mitigating circumstances to this case? Yes. I might not agree or condone the actions, but I can see the mitigation.

I'd rather ten of these cases than one of the cases I linked.
 
A question - the murder statistics that are quoted from time to time (usually when something like this happens) do not include manslaughters - is this correct?

If so, anyone have any idea what the "true" murder rate is here in Ireland?
 
The way things have been going lately, you may accidentally run over your next door neighbour's cat / kid's bike / whatever and they can call to your door, stab you to death, tell the judge and jury that they've lost the plot for a second and practically get away with it.

I just feel that the system leaves a lot of room for manouvre for anyone accused and guilty of crime. Also, the sentences given don't really detter genuinly malicious individuals from crime which leaves all of us very much exposed. IMHO.

My mother died as a victim of a blood crime which never got to court as the perpetrator committed suicide shortly afterwards. I often think that my family are better off that this individual never saw the courtroom as it would have really added to the hurt and upset if he just got off with manslaughter and a prison sentence for a couple of years. I do bring personal experience and very personal feelings into this but I don't care about anyone capable of hurting another human being or taking somebody's life and I care even less about their right to fair trial. They didn't give the victim a chance, did they?
 
I agree with you generally Derek, but, playing the devil's advocate:

dereko1969 said:
Where someone deliberately brings a knife to a party, to me that's murder.
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Not necessarily. It shows premeditation and possible intent to use the knife. Doesn't mean you intend to kill someone.

Where someone batters their wife about the head 3 TIMES, that's murder.
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Are you talking about a specific case? Depends what you mean by battering - if with a 'weapon' or something typically used as a weapon (e.g. baseball bat) then I agree. If with a random convenient 'object', less certain IMO.

Where someone stabs someone in the back 6 TIMES, that's murder.
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Hard to argue but mitigating circumstances may come into it - again, not sure if you are referring to a specific case here.
 
I think it all boils down to the evidence. Let us not forget that you cannot take everything you hear in the media as evidence. Only the jury has the evidence to make the decision. They are just poor decisions for whatever reason?

I wonder what the vetting process is like for jury's here in Ireland. I would not think that it is just a random public sample as the same type of results come out (although if it was a true random society sample, what a society we are!)
 
dereko1969 said:
Where someone deliberately brings a knife to a party, to me that's murder
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I can't agree. If you hear noise in you house at night, pick up a weapon and go downstairs the thought of what you will do with the weapon may not have even entered your head.

Being in possession of a weapon is not evidence of intent to murder.
 

As I brought those cases up first, I hope you don't mind me replying eventhough the question wasn't directed at me. Yes, they are all recent cases - first one is of a 19yo who killed her brother, second one is of E. Lillis and the third one was reported on RTE 9 o'clock news yesterday.

How can you say it depends? You don't bring a knife to a dinner party, never mind just a party without a sit down meal provided? Why would anyone bring a knife anywhere is totally beyond me. If the girl's intention intention was to defend herself if she needed to, assuming that she knew she was at risk, she shouldn't have gone to the party at all.

Battering somebody with a brick is no different to battering somebody with a baseball bat, golf club or a shovel. None of those are conveniently placed around the house (at least not mine) and even though I haven't paid a lot of attention, I have never seen loose bricks around people's (finished) houses, patios and gardens.

What mitigating circumstances can come into stabbing somebody in the back? They were either walking away from an argument or simply minding their own business when they were attacked.

If you fall out with your spouse, there is a legal procedure called divorce which leaves both parties alive while going their separate ways. If you fall out with a sibling, nobody is forcing you to have any kind of contact with them or if you fall out with a lover, it's plain and simple get over it. If you need help, there is counselling, psychiatrists and what not, all acceptable and legal means of coming to terms with whatever happened.

ETA. DerKaiser, you should be perfectly within your rights to defend yourself or your family in your own home which is completely different to actually putting a knife in your handbag or pocket and going to a party or a club. Since this thread was started as debate about manslaughter, personally I'd accept manslaughter if the knife stayed in the handbag, the brother tripped or was pushed, fell onto the bag and died of a stab wound. I would still argue why would a knife be there at all, but if it was and somebody died from falling on it, THAT would qualify as manslaughter IMO.
 
I think you have missed my point Yachtie.

Forget for a minute that these refer to actual cases and just read Derek's post at face value.

What he is saying, that those examples = murder is simplistic IMO.



I agree with all of this. It doesn't alter the fact that she wasn't necessarily going to commit murder.


My point was that there is a difference between e.g. lying in wait with a baseball bat or picking up a heavy ashtray in the heat of a drunken argument, that's all.

What mitigating circumstances can come into stabbing somebody in the back? They were either walking away from an argument or simply minding their own business when they were attacked.
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Endless possibilities. The victim could have murdered your entire family for example, the assailant could be mentally ill...
 
Caveat said:
I think you have missed my point Yachtie.

Forget for a minute that these refer to actual cases and just read Derek's post at face value.

What he is saying, that those examples = murder is simplistic IMO.
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I may have and I can accept that. I just feel very, very strongly about this.
 
I was referring to the specific cases mentioned by Yachtie.
Simplistic, perhaps, but as stated by Yachtie no-one forced her to go to the party and bring along a knife.
As I stated in my OP I'm fully aware that I can only go on media reports and that does not give the full picture.
My concern is that the DPP will end up feeling there's little point in bringing any murder charges at all and that murder will nearly disappear as a crime and we will have plea bargaining like in the States where manslaughter will be the default position rather than at least trying for a murder charge.
 
dereko1969 said:
we will have plea bargaining like in the States where manslaughter will be the default position rather than at least trying for a murder charge.
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'Reckless endangerement' is the Irish equivalent of manslaughter in the States, as explained to me by a high ranking official of the DPP.

It's all down to interpretation, I just think that 1st and 2nd degree murder are a lot fairer names and carry a lot more weight not only in terms of sentencing but also in terms of closure to those close to the victim who unfortunately often seem to be left forgotten by the judicial system. Ah well...
 
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