What can architect offer that engineer can't?

Planning house extension. Engineer/draughtsman swears he can help us plan it out. We have an idea of what we want but need some advice on how best to get what we want out of the space we have. Paying an architect to come up with a design will double the cost. Is it worth it? What will the architect do that the engineer can't. People mention "finish" but what is that exactly?

architect

An engineer can do much more than an architect in terms of building/planning/drawing/calculations of structural stability etc..In theory that is.Because he should have studied this.
As far as I know in Ireland the word and profession "architect" is not protected( correct me someone),everyone can call him/herself an architect and work as such.The EU want to change this,but vested interests over here are opposing the necessary amendments to the Irish law.
The word "finish"does not describe the style of the bathroom (smiley) but that of the house.Landscaping, interior look ,colour of the carpets etc..An architect is usually employed by self builders if they can't visualize what they want.So they get someone to make a drawing to look at.

Re: architect

Hi Albert.
I guess it is a horses for courses type thing. If you have a clear idea of what you want then a good engineer or draughtsman will be able to design what you need and take into account all structural factors and building reg requirements.
If you are looking for something a little different like a feature based design or a design to a certain building style or a design to fit a particular environment, then this is where architects should come into their own. An engineer will tend to design based on a straightforward practical and functional approach, whereas architects have additional training from the arts side and should be looking at the bigger picture, the aesthetics, utilising the space better, getting better value for your money etc. However it has to be said finding a good architect is often the problem. My experience is that I have used an engineer for a house extension and an architect for a standlone house and can say this was the right way to go in my situation.

Advice

Thanks for your feedback. We are having trouble deciding the best way to lay out the rooms in our ground floor and upstairs following the extension. Its not just a basic garage conversion.

We are converting the garage to two storeys and building 8-10 feet out the back to get an open plan kitchen/dining/living space and this will involve knocking some internal walls as well. We want to get a utility room, back porch(sink etc), study and playroom in there too. Upstairs we want new bedroom and ensuite, storage and an attic stairs for future conversion.

I'm just nervous about trusting the engineer to advise us on the best layout as he may not come up with the best use of the space/light but maybe I'm not giving engineers enough credit. I just want to be sure we use the space as well as possible and don't end up regretting our saving a few K on the architect. In your opinion should an engineer be able to help us decide on how to layout the house or is this a big enough project to justify an architect?

Architect

What is the normal architect's fee for an extension that doesn't require planning permission (i.e less than 400 sq ft). Is 5% of the building price reasonable?

Re: Architect

Whoever you get you will need someone with a good knowledge of planning regulations, who can check if your extension is exempt from planning permission or not. If you are going up above ground level and then extending back you may well need planning permission, also there are strict regulations on attic conversions, etc. Dublin City Council provides some outline indications at: [broken link removed] So you should get an architect or engineer who has had previous experience in dealing with your type of house, and, if you need planning permission, with your local planning department and in obtaining planning permission. Also you say your engineer / draughtsman ‘swears he can help us plan it out’, but does he have any professional indemnity insurance, can he obtain planning permission if it is required, has he carried out similar work on other houses of your type, can he obtain realistic and value for money quotes from builders, can he supervise the builders when they build the extension, can he deal with them if problems arise, will he sign off that the work has been completed to spec, etc.? It's not just a matter of design, room layout, etc. , it's a whole project management approach that is needed. Personally, I’d recommend an architect, but I’ve only ever dealt with architects and not engineers. You can find an architect in your locality by contacting the RIAI www.riai.ie.

Architect

Just about to engage an architect to design an extension for me. We live in a small town in the west of Ireland and there are only a few architects within 20 miles. There are even fewer builders to build the extension.

In general, as I understand it, architects tend to us the same few builders with whom they feel comfortable and they can work with.

Is there a danger that the architect and builder can pick a price which suits them rather than suits me? Will the builder cost the job without any input from the architect?

A friend of mine suspects that having been asked by the architect how much he was prepared to spend on his extension, that the quotes he received through the architect's builders were suspiciously close to this.

He did get quotes himself but when he sat down with the architect to evaluate the prices, the architect pressured him into picking one of his builder's quotes.

Should I get a contract with the architect and a separate one with the builder? Any ideas of architect's fees?

All input gratefully received

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Albert

If you're suggesting that you're thinking of shelling out a extra few grand for an an architect on the basis that they will provide some creative input, may I suggest that you think very carefully.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, such an architect is hard to find and you'll end up having to do most of the thinking yourself anyway.

I admit that my experience may not reflect the norm and that my conclusions may be unfair on the industry in general, but suffice to say I've had my eyes opened.

darn fields

In trying to build a house, I'm already on my third engineer. The first messed us around for 9 months, missing several builder slots and then demanded to be paid upfront before putting mouse to pad (having sworn blind on numerous occasions that the drawings were done). We politely told him where to go and moved on to engineer No 2.

No 2 got the drawings done and got our planning permission, but only because my mother-in-law was ringing him every day to hound him. He also completely ignored my pleas for "any room layout as long as there is plenty of light", and just did yer bog standard house regardless of orientation. I rejigged the layout myself to maximise the daylight, but it meant moving a chimney for which we have had to reapply for permission. This didn't bother us since it transpired that said chimney had nowhere to go above the ground floor except for straight through an ensuite (I'm still in shock that neither engineer, county council, builder or myself noticed this)

So for our re-application it was on to engineer No 3 who has proved himself competent, available and prompt and has saved my sanity.

If I had to do it over, despite the bad experience with Nos 1 & 2, I would go still with an engineer because I knew what I wanted and the site meant we didn't have much scope. I would however, be very, very careful that I was dealing with someone I felt comfortable with, and who returned phonecalls promptly.

Spacer, I would be interested to hear more of your experience because I would be inclined to use an architect if I had a bigger site in a less built up area with more scope for design.

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Penny

At the outset, let me say that my experience with architects is limited. The guy I used was great insofar as he advised on cost, materials, practicalities, etc and was great for these aspects of the work.

However, I was expecting more in terms of creative input. He was very "functional" in his approach and didn't seem to listen to our requirements. He just drew what he felt would "do" - in my view, an off-the-shelf solution that you could design yourself in ten minutes. Every suggestion we had was frowned upon until (eventually) he conceded that it could be accomodated with a look that said "well, if you really want it.....

It took several headbanging sessions (over several months) before our requirements were incorporated into the final plan for which we currently await planning permission. We had put a lot of thought into what we wanted which, as it turned out, was just as well. I dread to think what we might have ended up with otherwise.

Again, I would stress that this guy mightn't repreent the norm. My point is that if you are looking for a high level of creative input to the creation of plans, don't assume that EVERY architect necessariliy has what it takes.

First time posting, so bare with me.

Came accross this question looking for somthing totally differant on google and thought I would put my two pence in.

I am an Engineer, often I would complete planning applications etc.

I would advise if you want something special, particularly to the rear ext. then go with an Architect, but be sure you pick the right one. There is plenty of draughtsmen out there who call them selfs architect. they generally do a good job, but a trained architect, especially the better ones are well worth the money in the long term , generally an architect designed house or extension has a wow factor.

dont be afraid to interview the architect, ask for examples of previous work, photos, if you can visit or call to a previous job, he should have one on site that you could visit with him, check if he is RIAI registered, http://www.riai.ie/?id=5761

it a more expensive route but in my opinion well worth it, you can also have the architect prepare the planning drawings and then search around for an engineer to design and supervise the build, but be sure to pick one who understands the architects design concept and is confident he can acheive it.

if you only want a standard ext. know exactly want you need and want then a engineer,draughtsman is fine, if not you should be explaining to the architect how you use the house, what ou intend to use the new space for and let them acheive a good design.

One note of caution, when an architect is given a brief like this not only can it be expensive but you sometimes have to be brave and acept there advise, especially if you are not the best at reading drawings. they will be working to an overall vision that we often do not appricate untill you see the final building.

best of luck