welfare fraudster treated better than hardworking people who cant pay tax bill

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sidzer

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Can't believe how soft the system is on people who de-fraud the welfare system! Prime Time Investigates showed a number of people who were caught shrugging their shoulders and saying that they did not know they were doing wrong and sorry but I can't pay it back! Some of the people featured had defrauded the state by thousands of euro.The penalties were pathetic and in no way would be a deterant.

The system was exposed as a joke and those in charge clowns - at an estimated cost of over 2 billion in fraud annually.

The night before The Sheriff and Me (rte) showed a different side to the state - this time it was hard working people who due to a major down turn in their business could not pay their tax bills - in this instance the heavies were sent around threatening to take away furniture or anything they could sell putting the fear of God into the unfortunates.

In my opinion hard working people who are struggling with their businesses should be helped and those who steal welfare money to the degree of those shown in the Prime Time programme should be jailed!!!
 
+1. Didn't see the programme but it was heavily discussed at work today all seemed to agree with Sidzer's sentiments.
 
It is more down to the morals of the individuals. People who have the drive to set up their own business to provide for themselves are always going to have more pride and respect for themselves than people who sit and wait on freebies knowing that they are getting more than they should.

Two examples I know personally - guy sets up his own little business after working since leaving school. After 2 years finds he is getting in over his head and it is not working. He goes back to paid employment, but owes one supplier a considerable amount of money. It has taken probably more than 3 years, but that supplier has been paid back every penny they are owed, slowly, but surely.

Girl around same age, left school early, even though could have well stayed on at least to Leaving Cert. Couple of jobs here and there but nothing consistent or long term, even at a time when there were much more jobs than people. Ends up drawing unmarried mothers benefit for 4 children, low rent house, lives with partner (tradesman, who made a fortune during boom) Social welfare came knocking one day (I reckon it was tip off from neighbours) Signs off. No investigation into thousands defrauded over the years, just left like that. Life goes on with no hassle, only a bit less money.Ah well, it was good while it lasted kind of attitude.
 
I didn't see the programmes. If you defaud welfare do they not take the amount overpaid back from your dole ? Not in one lump sum but in a weekly amount? The OP mentioned penalties, what are the penalties?
 
+1 Sidzer

Saw both programmes and found The Sheriff and Me desperately sad. They were about to lose everything, in a lot of the cases the main creditor was Revenue.

Noticed that a lot of the welfare fraudsters were tackled as they were getting out of their cars/jeeps - why weren't these seized to pay back some of the money they claimed fraudulently?
 
+1. Given that you could be jailed if you don't pay a fine, the fact that you can walk away scot free (ok, paying a small sum every week back) having robbed the state of €50k+ in some case is very wrong

What surprised me with the Prime time programmes were the people drawing welfare illegally yet in full time employement paying tax. Given that they would have the same PPS number, it would not be rocket science from an IT perspective to run a programme on a regular basis comparing PPS numbers to whom social welfare was paid to and PPS numbers from people who paid tax over an amount that could potentially disqualify them from SW payments.

Likewise re people "renting" PPS numbers, how stupid are some employers?, do they not verify who their staff are? I know where I work we require proof of ID (eg passport) and proof of address at the very least. These companies were leaving themselves wide open to be robbed or defrauded
 
Another +1 to Sidzer.

Why aren't they named in the papers like tax defaulters? They should be IMO.
 
+ 1 Sidzer.

I saw both programmes. I also deal daily with small businesses hit by the economic conditions, people who have no safety net when things go wrong. The people portrayed in the PT special appeared to have no remorse whatsoever for what they did and were in some cases quite flippant about how or when or if ever it would be repayed. One went so far as to say that she was never told it was wrong to claim Child Benefit in two jurisdictions. Another went to great extents to claim in both N/Irl and ROI, you can't say that was a mistake. Part of the problem however seems to be the rediculous ease of access to PPS numbers and lack of inter-departmental checks and balances. We can spend millions on e-voting machines that never worked but we can't check if someone is signing on and claiming SW at the same time as working.
 
Not to defend the practices as I was horrified and angered by the programme, but I think data protection issues could be partly to blame for the lack of "data matching" between DSFA and Revenue.

Hard to believe that you can be done for SW fraud yet continue receiving benefits! Agree with the suggestion that those convicted should be named the way tax defaulters are.
 
Caveat said:
Another +1 to Sidzer.

Why aren't they named in the papers like tax defaulters? They should be IMO.
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oh but they are the vunerable. Poor misfortunes, you cant be doin that.

Anyway name % shame?? they probably wont give a F$$k.
Its like commiting a crime here. There is a deterent if your a law abiding citizen, if your a criminal theres no deterent.
 
Dreadful, I thought the contrast between the treatment of people in the two programmes was frustratingly stark. Hard to believe that they send the heavies round to clear out businesses and ruin livelihoods of decent people in one case, and in the other just shrug their shoulders (as the head of SW seemed to do) when someone knowingly defrauds to the tune of a six-figure sum. The problem of rented PPS numbers could easily be solved by the inclusion (and request for) photo ID. As I have never claimed any form of benefit I was under the impression that this was required and cannot believe that something so simple is not in place.
The two programmes combined are a sad indictment of the 'system' if ever there was one.
 
Caveat said:
I agree that many won't - but some should/might?
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Agreed. Just saying it needs to be much more than that. Why isnt there stiffer penalities and why arent they demanded in view of the state we're in. Is down to pc bleeding hearts
 
I think it's also down to sheer incompetence - what other country would continue to pay 204 euro a week to a guy who'd already been 'charged' (as I couldn't be sure if they were actually criminal charges brought or it was just a discovery) of 50k fraud? No penalties, no recourse, just continue on with the handouts thanks very much.
 
these fraudsters should be named, shamed and punished by law - why isn't that happening? looks like the bigger sum you managed to defraud, the more protection you get ... plus if you are able to dish out a sob story about your sad circumstances /father alcoholic, mother drug addict, sister half-pig half-cow and brother got trampled by reindeer when playing santa/ you even get people who shed a tear over your sad circumstances and give out about the cruel state which wants to have you punished.
 
The entire SW system needs an overhaul. The system is being run very poorly. And that's being nice as I don't want to start another PS bashing thread.

Name. Repo all in sight. Jail for a minimum of 3 years. Remove from all benefits including right to a house. The money should be paid back plus interest. Jail should be mandatory irrespective of age or sex.
 
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