"We must dismantle our culture of dependency"

TheBigShort said:
Nevertheless, here is media article debunking data from department of social protection. By no means definitive but if you are using media articles, then so will I.

http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/...the-government-believes-it-can-save-600m.html
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Do you know the definition of data? I'll give you an example - actual objective figures of, say, the number of people on the live register who have never made any PRSI contributions in their life (actual counting) - that's an example of data. A minister quoting estimated hypothetical fraud savings = not data. Debunking an estimate or opinion is not the same as debunking data.

[You could probably do with a definition of media too...]
 
TheBigShort said:
I was trying to dumb it down to level with an article from the Irish Independent, but it was the best I could do.
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I think the Info is a rag at the best of times, but putting it on a par with Michael Taft is an insult to journalists everywhere. Anyway enough diversions...how about backing up your figures?
 

The actual fraud figure provided from Social Protection figures was €26million. Is that 'data' enough for you?
 
Firefly said:
I think the Info is a rag at the best of times, but putting it on a par with Michael Taft is an insult to journalists everywhere. Anyway enough diversions...how about backing up your figures?
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How about you posting some figures?...from within Irish territoral waters this time.
 
TheBigShort said:
The actual fraud figure provided from Social Protection figures was €26million. Is that 'data' enough for you?
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Sure - but what's that got to do with this thread? Sitting at home scratching one's This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language is not currently hunted down as fraud and wouldn't be in that number (would probably be things like claiming for dead people, people who have left the country, single parents actually co-habiting etc.)
 
TheBigShort said:
How about you posting some figures?...from within Irish territoral waters this time.
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What's wrong with the numbers in the Indo report? You might look down your nose at the Indo but the underlying data came via Joan Burton from the department of Social Protection. Doesn't get much better than that surely?
 
orka said:
What's wrong with the numbers in the Indo report? You might look down your nose at the Indo but the underlying data came via Joan Burton from the department of Social Protection. Doesn't get much better than that surely?
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Theres no more wrong with the figures in the Indo than there is with the figures in the link I provided to you, which are based on data from department of social protection.
Tell me you didn't look down your nose at that, did you?
 

Where did you come out of anyway? Where has ppmeath and Purple disappeared to?
You have decided that these people are at home scratching their This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language (with no proof, just an inherent bias), but if you were to follow comments from Purple et al you would be left in no doubt that scratching your This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language and claiming is considered fraud in their books.
So perhaps talk to them about what is and isnt fraud.
 
orka said:
Did you even read it yourself? A quick 2 minute skim will tell you it's got nothing to do with what's being discussed in this thread.
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Its not definitive for sure, but if you only give it a 2 min skim then you are dodging the issue.
Btw I dont even remember you being part of this discussion, so dont tell what the issue is.
Unless you can come up with something better than an indo article that takes no consideration of the multitude of reasons why people arent at work, as opposed to the typical snob attitude that because someone is on long term welfare that that automatically means, in your words, scratching their This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language.
 
TheBigShort said:
Where did you come out of anyway? Where has ppmeath and Purple disappeared to?
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TheBigShort said:
Btw I dont even remember you being part of this discussion, so dont tell what the issue is.
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You're a funny guy BS. I would imagine ppmeath and Purple are off living their lives - dinner, family, mad stuff like that. We work in relays to keep the conspiracy going.

TheBigShort said:
So perhaps talk to them about what is and isnt fraud.
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Some people may consider it fraud but it not currently chased up as fraud so it's not included in any of your fraud stats, data or reports.
TheBigShort said:
Its not definitive for sure, but if you only give it a 2 min skim then you are dodging the issue.
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I'm a fast reader. It's clear early on that the report is about fraud as currently chased up - nothing to do with activation measures.
 
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TheBigShort said:
the typical snob attitude that because someone is on long term welfare that that automatically means, in your words, scratching their This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language.
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Ladies and Gentlemen (drum roll please)...

The prize for the first mention of This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language-scratching in this thread goes to:

TheBigShort!

 
Ok so lets take your Indo report as the definitive for the moment, and lets take your view that This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language scratching is not fraudulent ( but if purple comes back on here then you have to explain that to him/her).

The report is dated May 2013, and you have unilaterally decided that there is a serious bout of This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language scratching going on. The report states that it would appear to vindicate the Ministers view that some people have chosen a lifestyle of welfare. But it doesn't confirm that the Ministers view is vindicated, let alone the Minister herself confirming her view. Let me say here now, that I do not doubt that it is the case, that some choose welfare dependency as a lifestyle, but I would seriously doubt it to be at the levels that are suggested here. And in my defence, Colm Keaveney who obtained the ,'astonishingly, disturbing' figures stated they required an investigation. If you have the results of that investigation that would be handy?
But in the absence of those results, we can work with the figures from your article.

Some 43,500 people never contributed to PRSI, indicating that they never worked.
How many of these people are;

1) school leavers or college gradutes looking for work for the first time at a time of some 13-14% unemployment?
2) immigrants arriving to ireland from other EU countries but with no track record of working here
3) are engaged in full-time care of elderly or disabled person
4) actively seeking employment and participating in social welfare programs to upskill or retrain
5) actively seeking employment but because of a previous criminal record or drug or alcohol addiction are genuinely finding it difficult to receive offers of employment
6) in receipt of a disability allowance that hinders, but does not prevent them from taking employment? For instance, most office blocks are wheelchair friendly these days, but how wheelchair workers do you know of. I know of only two.
6) members of the Traveller community who have traditionally faced discrimination when it comes to employment.
7) scratching their This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language?

The results of the investigation would surely give us a better picture.

Certainly by time people have reached 35, that number drops dramatically to 13,222 and as mentioned this would include people with kids so add to the list

8) lone parents, typically women, left to raise a child without a reliable partner.

So once you can identify the number of This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language scratchers as distinct the number of people with no PRSI, then come back and we will discuss further.
 
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Can we get back to what this thread is about please?

It’s about a welfare system which creates a culture of dependency. Yes, the fraudsters and criminals are in that group but so is someone who would work but is better off on welfare and so chooses not to work.

Unemployment benefit is paid on the basis that the recipient is available and willing to work. If they are disabled or a full time carer then they are not part of that group. If they choose not to take a job which is offered to them then they are not willing to work and so in breach of the moral contract they have with their fellow citizens whose money they are living off. That’s what this is about; people who could work but don’t because it doesn’t pay for them to do so; that’s a culture of welfare dependency.


We have a number of options. We could;

1) Leave things as they are and just live with it. I’m not a fan of this option as it traps people in intergenerational poverty.

2) Reduce welfare across the board, making any employment better than none financially. I’m not a fan of this option either as it will lead to increased hardship and suffering.

3) Change the unemployment benefit system to one which pays more to short term unemployed people than long term unemployed people. I like this idea.

4) Means test all long term unemployment payments. I like this option as well. People need to stop thinking that they have an entitlement to live off their neighbours.

5) Force employers to pay people more and so make employment more financially attractive. I’m not a fan of this either. It’s just a tax in another form so if you want businesses to pay for it just tax them more and be honest about it.

6) Accept that many people who choose to live off their neighbours because their neighbours are giving them a better standard of living than they can provide for themselves are a lost cause and do everything possible to ensure that their children grow up free from such a morally bankrupt parasitic mind set. This can only really be done through the education system and in fairness to those involved the education system does quite a good job here.
 
TheBigShort, I know you missed me but I'm working odd hours at the moment and I'm busiest in the evenings. You can relax though, I'm still around.

You still haven't answered my question about why you think FIS is a subsidy to employers if you think wages should be set by the market. Did you have a chance to think about it overnight?
 
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