Waste Charges by Weight - Anti Family ?

niallymac

If you can remember off the top of your head, I'd love to know how the schedule of charges was broken down.

Rebecca

I agree with Miss Ribena that items like PET bottles should simply be banned where at all possible. Why is milk sold in them? We went from glass bottles to tetra to plastic in the name of "progress" and when we get here we realise we were regressing in environmental terms all of the time. Again it was seen as progress to wrap vegetables in nice shiny packaging when loose is best. We've gotten to the stage where people put a bunch of bananas in individual plastic bags!

I would love to see this country reach the cutting edge of reduce, reuse, recycle with the state taking a leading roll in the reduce stage (as was done with the plastic bag tax). Packaging should be vetted and overpackaging simply not permitted. This country projects a green image to the rest of the world which is all show - I think we could earn that image.

Re: Waste Charges

Piggy, of course levels of childbirth are not directly linked to taxation, but with cost of housing and other factors making it almost universally necessary for both partners in a relationship to be in full time employ these days, the cost of having children does become a huge issue for many in Ireland.

I agree with you re house prices and other factors.

It is worth pointing out though that we expect more from our lifestyle nowadays than we did 30 years ago. Our lifestyles tend to be more extravogent, which also adds to the pressure of having children and being able to afford them.

I don't think life was a bed of roses for people in the 60's and yet they had large(r) families.
Lots of factors contributed to that...contraception, the church etc...etc

It's generally accepted that we're better off nowadays than our parents were...yet we're having smaller families.

Re: Waste by Weight

Good post Miss R

eg does it offer incentives for businesses to use environmentally sound packaging?

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I was involved with repak (as a member) in the very early days. To address some of your issues Reapak charges by weight of goods put into the Irish market. However the charges were (certainly 8 years ago) completely insane. e.g the most expensive material was steel. For me this was crazy as steel is a very recyclable but as it is very heavy the charge was high. I’m not involved in this side of things now but I hope they have resolved these anomalies. If I remember correctly the cost of steel (put on the market) was actually higher than a composite material (e.g. tetrapak) per unit weight.

I have my doubts about the recycling of Tetrapaks too because their layered construction makes them difficult to re-use.

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You are right to be skeptical about T.pacs. There has been some progress recently but as you have to have plastic to seal the carton you are left with a composite material. I’m not sure how, but some separation techniques have been developed, but details are sketchy.

The last point I would make is that the market for recycling is very erratic; therefore establishing a sound business plan is difficult. For instance the cost of virgin pulp has often been close or even lower than recycled. The ethical aspect of this situation in Ireland is particularly interesting, as the pulp market is controlled by very few players. I’ll say no more!

Nat

PET bottles should simply be banned where at all possible. Why is milk sold in them?

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just to clarify (hopefully):
PET is PolyEthyleneTeraphthalate : Typical use: fizzy drinks. PET is useful as it has a high gas barrier, and can be precisely formed (ie. an accurate neck)

PE: is PolyEthylene (AKA polythene) : Typically used for stuff like milk. PE is useful as it is cheap and easily formed (though not as accurately as PET)

PVC PolyVinyl Chloride: Typically used for tablet blisters, again quite cheap very easily formed at high production speeds. Not suitable for high fat products, as plastisizers tend to migrate from PVC to high fat environments. (Remember the cling film (PVC)/cheese scare in the '90s)

I'd be interested in sharing ideas on why plastics should(n't) be banned.

Nat

charge by volume

charging by volume is the fairest/most practical implementation.
The natural "unit" of domestic waste collection is the wheelie bin.
There would be excessive administration associated with paying by weight. You certainly can't pay per use. How do you bill? Do they send out a bill quarterly, twice a year. If so then you've got postage and cost of envelopes and billing system to add to cost of collection.
Last year my wheelie bin was collected only 13 times because it only needed to be emptied 13 times.
If charge is by volume you are only going to empty the wheelie bin when it needs to be emptied. Fewer bins to collect every week means that the Collection lorries can service more estates than they would through any of the alternative solutions. Weighing bins will cost time, a small amount of time for each house but enough time to mean that Refuse truck will not be able to collect from another estate during the working day.
Charging by volume doesn't discourage recycling as every household with a grey bin should have a green bin which you would prefer to fill as it saves you money.

Curious to know if anyone in the Fingal Co. Co. area that would prefer another means of charging over the current "charge by volume" method and why?

Re: charge by volume

The proposed new system for Dun Laoghaire Rathdown next year is horrendously complex. The costs will consist of;

- a flat fee per household per year (about €150, I think)
- a charge per 'lift' (each time you put the bin out)
- a charge for the weight of the bin (measured on the truck, and billed back to you using an identification chip on the bin)

This really is going to make it difficult for the consumer to understand the cost drivers.

Wheelie Bins

Interesting that not everyone agrees that the WB is the standard unit of measurement. As BackinIreland says he is more careful with recycling when he has to be.

Here's what one council in UK has to say on the matter:

[broken link removed]

any thoughts?

.

That is indeed complex! Maybe deliberately so.

What would be wrong with just paying by volume? I suspect that most domestic rubbish is generally comprised of about the same stuff, so what difference would weight/volume make?

If people have a half full bin, they can wait till next time to put it out. (when it will be full)

I do believe that everyone who uses the service, should pay for the service (no waivers). Waivers only encourage people to be more wasteful, as we are experiencing in SDCC

Re: .

If people have a half full bin, they can wait till next time to put it out. (when it will be full)

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The jist of the web link is: what if, for instance, your bin is 2/3 full per week? Point is make people think about what they're doing. Plastic bag tax is a good example of a simple system that makes you think…..15c think!!...oh bring a bag.

The issue we have to address is how to deal with the three R.'s
1 Reduce
2 Reuse
3 Recycle

Reduce: Miss Ribena's comment is very valid: what does Repak do to encourage reduction? (a lose quote , I admit) There is an obligation on producers to justify the amount of packaging used, and furthermore to demonstrate a year on year reduction. Question is, what happens if you don't? and in my experience ....er nothing

Reuse: Now here is something that, I feel, as a Nation we are not good at. When was the last time you saw anyone wash out an item of packaging and say, that'll be great for such and such. This came very naturally to my parent's generation, but now we, in general, view packaging as simply waste.

Recycle: Is it really useful? or just another conscience release valve. Recycling is sometimes better that not recycling, but not a patch on the first two Rs. Ireland is in the ha’penny position in the world of waste management , but instead of tackling the real issues we a nibbling at the perceived holy grail of recycling.


Or are we doing a great job?

waste generation

With all due respect - I doubt very much if anyone actually has a family because to quote a previous poster :
"The country needs kids and needs them quickly or like the rest of Western world we will start showing net population decline "
You want kids - you should make sure you can afford them. Simple.
You and your large family generate more waste than someone else - you pay for it. Why should you expect someone else to ?
Laoise

two wheelie bins

In Fingal residents are given Green and Black wheelie bin so Workingham study mentioned above isn't applicable.
Only problem with Green Bin system in operation in Fingal is that they don't accept enough types of recyclables and some routes still haven't been issued with green bins.

..

Why in the name of God is there not a national body to ensure the same level of standards everywhere?
It begers belief that in Cork I have to pay $10 to dispose of grass everytime I go to the dump whereas in Dublin it is accepted free. How can that be allowed....if waste is a national issue then every authority should be forced to offer the same minimum standards.

Second, I think the authorities have no interest in anything that encourages recycling. The cynic in me says that taking Cork as an example the council are well used and pleased with their €350 notes a year.
Now if everyone goes mad and starts recycling when the pay by weight comes in, the council will still have to drive past every single house that they currently drive past, so their wage charges will still be the same. Don't see the bin men accepting a wage cut! But if I and all of my neighbours are putting out half empty, lightweight bins every week, they are going to be taking in way less money. Even though I think they would hike the price by Kg very quickly, it would be hard to see how they could justify hiking it enough to get back up to €350 per house if everyone was putting out half as much rubbish as they used to.

Meanwhile, because the councils do not charge for recycling, and everyone is recylcing way more, the cost to the council will shoot through the roof, and I don't think they will gain a massive amount from less waste going to land fill.

So how will it work.....and at what stage will they also charge you to recycle????

Re: ..

So how will it work.....and at what stage will they also charge you to recycle????

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I might be wrong but in Waterford I'm pretty sure they charge you the same to pick up the green bin as the other bin. So you pay the same whether you recycle or not.

They fine you (additional revenue) if you don't separate properly.

This is second hand so if anyone can correct me please do.

The whole policy is a mess. I've said before, if you have the chance to live a few miles from a land fill, jump at it. I lived for two years a couple of miles from one and I saved a fortune, and I recycled because it made sense.

Anywhere I've ever had to pay to have my waste removed I've been ripped off, and I've not bothered with recycling.

Paying to dump grass cuttings in Cork? You have to be kidding? Surely this is a joke!?!?!?! I'd drive round to my local councellor and dump it on his lawn if they asked me to pay to dump grass.

- Rd

Re: ..

Use the grass as mulch , get a composting.....feed the earth and all that......

..

It costs €10 to bring in a car to the tip head. This tip head accepts domestic rubbish...i.e. black bags.

But it is also the section that accepts
White goods(fridges/washing machines etc)
Soil/rubble
Metal items
Wood, provided all hinges/nails have been removed.
Grass/Green cuttings/Hedge clippings.
Maybe one more I am forgetting....they are all a tenner, provided its only within your car. A single axle trailer is 20 or 30 squids.

The only things the Cork City Council accepts free of charge are:
paper/glass/cans spread accross the city in a filthy overflowing bring sites.
If you want to recycle plastic bottles...ignoring the merits or not of PET...the only City site that accepts them is the dump, and that closes daily at 3.45pm and Saturdays at 12.30 and not open Sunday.

So you can see why someone in Cork would be sick of waste matters. Compare the above to Dublin where nearly all of the above is accepted for free.....
[broken link removed]

Also for example down here, the city do not accept televisions or computer monitors, hence anyone I know needing to get rid of one just takes it apart and dumps in their rubbish bit by bit.

Fair play to the Cork City Council for the visionary approach...

Re: ..daltonr yes, you're right

Yep, you're right about the charges in Co. Waterford.

We pay per grey wheelie and also slightly less for each recycle large clear plastic bag. And yes, you're fined if you mix the rubbish. I still prefer this method to the charges in Dublin where we pay a standard fee no matter what or how much we put in the bin.

The method in Waterford makes us think about separating our waste. It makes us more careful and yes, it works out cheaper in the long run.

The unregistered used who commented that the €30/week would cover the cost of landfilling the nappies obviously has given a lot of thought to the issue. The point being made is that having children is very expensive, and nobody would regret having kids, but it does not stop the frustration when charges like these penalise you for them. Dont get me started on Individualization.......

Hey, there's a skip. Did we bring the black bag?

I haven't used my black bin since last November. I have so little rubbish left after recycling. I have the opposite view in so far as I am happy to pay by weight rather than a flat fee. My parents are in the same boat so we combine our black bin rubbish. I mean why pay two fees.
Prior to circa 1930 everyone dug a hole in their back garden and buried their rubbish.

Hey, there's a skip. Did we bring the black bag?

> The unregistered used who commented that the €30/week would cover the cost of landfilling the nappies obviously has given a lot of thought to the issue.

By "cost" here I meant the (usually subsidised) waste charges levied by the local authority on the resident as opposed to the full (non subsidised) cost of landfill. For example, this link purports to illustrate the DCC wast charges versus the real full cost of landfill:

www.dublinwaste.com/dubli...uncil.html

The point is that while having kids MAY inflate a household's by weight refuse charges, such households also receive a children's allowance which can be used in part to ameliorate increased costs such as this that arise from having kids.