Vincent Browne on the murder of a Garda.

Last paragraph in VB's IT opinion today said:

I am not saying people do not have responsibility for their own actions. I am saying that a great deal of criminality, as we understand criminality, is derived in large part from the sordid inequality we ordain to persist.

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So there you have it, we are to blame for those poor fellas forced into robbery and murder. And what does "as we understand criminality" mean?

What an insight. This must be worth a Nobel Prize. Vinny has discovered that criminals are not to blame. It's all down to a product of their environment. We are to blame for the inequality that leads them to being criminals. So the drug pushers, the misunderstood gentlemen who killed Garda Donohoe, the IRA killers of Garda McCabe who got caught up in "the conflict" etc, etc, etc are not really to blame. It's all our fault. Shame on us. On behalf of the nation, I feel I should apologise to these neglected, unfortunate, deprived members of our community.
Well done Vinny for bringing this to our national consciousness. We are all the better for your insight.

Duke of Marmalade said:

So there you have it, we are to blame for those poor fellas forced into robbery and murder. And what does "as we understand criminality" mean?

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'as we understand criminality'
we = Vinny and his liberal buddies such as former Mountjoy head, John Lonergan. And we all know how John ran Mountjoy and his views on who's fault it was that put the crims in prison....the middle classes who don't pay enough taxes so as to allow for the dole to be increased, more free houses to be provided, more handouts such as 1st communion money, xmas dole etc etc

I don't earn anything like VB does, so if I broke into his house, would he point me towards the most valuable stuff? After all, it's his fault!

Duke of Marmalade said:

So there you have it, we are to blame for those poor fellas forced into robbery and murder. And what does "as we understand criminality" mean?

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You might want to try reading the first sentence that you quoted.

Then you might want to try explaining why the vast majority of prisoners in Mountjoy come from a few Dublin postcodes. Coincidence?

Complainer, the human condition is unequal. The grand Soviet experiment to deny that reality failed miserably more than 20 years ago. In our society we have universal education (Vinnie bemoaned in his article that not everyone goes to Blackrock College). We have universal health care. Unfortunately in the nature of the human economic condition we still have unemployment, at present far too much. But then we have the most generous social protection regime in the world funded by foreign official cheap borrowing.

Vinnie, in an attempt to be super intellectual, blames us or maybe it is "society" when someone resorts to robbery and murder because they didn't go to Blackrock College. Thankfully, the vast majority of our 460,000 unemployed are not endowed with Vinnie's intellectual moral compass.

In any case, it was rotten insensitive selfish egotism for Vinnie to make this trite high school debating point in the week that was in it.

Excellent post DoM, very well put.

The problem with seeing criminality as mainly an economic problem is that it removed personal responsibility from the equation.
The root causes of poverty are mainly social. The net results of that social problem is poverty and criminality. The solution is to alleviate the symptoms (welfare & extra policing) while implementing the real cure; education. Welfare never lifts people out of poverty, in fact it traps them in it. Education is the cure.
Vincent Browne is too interested in pushing his own agenda to actually delve into the detail and have a grow up debate about the core issues.

Duke of Marmalade said:

Complainer, the human condition is unequal. The grand Soviet experiment to deny that reality failed miserably more than 20 years ago. In our society we have universal education (Vinnie bemoaned in his article that not everyone goes to Blackrock College). We have universal health care. Unfortunately in the nature of the human economic condition we still have unemployment, at present far too much. But then we have the most generous social protection regime in the world funded by foreign official cheap borrowing.

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Yes, the grand Soviet experiment did fail miserably, though I don't think 'the experiment' had anything much to do with human equality or inequality. It was about power and control, but that's another day's work.

We do indeed have universal education and health care. We also have huge inequalities in education. We have huge differences in class sizes. We have huge differences in access to technology. We have huge differences in access to grinds to bump up the CAO points required to access 3rd level. We have huge differences in access to essential early interventions like speech therapy for children with autism and children with Downs Syndrome - if the parents can't afford to pay for the therapies, the development opportunities are lost forever. We have huge differences in access to healthcare, as evidenced by the approx 50% of us who pay for private health insurance compared to 15% in the UK, because we know that people die for lack of insurance here.

But seriously, why do you think that much of the population of Mountjoy comes from a small number of Dublin postcodes? Is this some huge genetic coincidence, or what?

Complainer said:

We do indeed have universal education and health care. We also have huge inequalities in education. We have huge differences in class sizes. We have huge differences in access to technology. We have huge differences in access to grinds to bump up the CAO points required to access 3rd level. We have huge differences in access to essential early interventions like speech therapy for children with autism and children with Downs Syndrome - if the parents can't afford to pay for the therapies, the development opportunities are lost forever. We have huge differences in access to healthcare, as evidenced by the approx 50% of us who pay for private health insurance compared to 15% in the UK, because we know that people die for lack of insurance here.

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Isn't it a function of Public Services to address such inequalities? Therefore isn't it a shame that the billions we raise in taxes along with the billions we are borrowing to pay for public services are not spent better?

Complainer said:

But seriously, why do you think that much of the population of Mountjoy comes from a small number of Dublin postcodes? Is this some huge genetic coincidence, or what?

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"Idle hands are the devils tools" ?

Complainer said:

But seriously, why do you think that much of the population of Mountjoy comes from a small number of Dublin postcodes? Is this some huge genetic coincidence, or what?

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So what is your bestist country in the world? Norway? Switzerland? Let's call it Utopia. I'll bet Utopia has its murderers and robbers. And I also bet they source from the deprived sections of that Utopian society. In the words of Basil Fawlty that's stating the bleeding obvious. Does it mean society is to blame or those few who chose robbery and murder?

It's all a bit relative I suppose. Is our society more unequal than others? More unequal than the UK less unequal than the US.

There is no excuse for murder and serious crime in the current state of our society, imperfect as it is and as it always will be. Vinnie made the excuse at a terribly insensitive time.

Complainer said:

But seriously, why do you think that much of the population of Mountjoy comes from a small number of Dublin postcodes? Is this some huge genetic coincidence, or what?

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everyone in this country has options, choices...some decide to go the criminal route (both blue and white collar) and some decide to go the same route as 99% of the population and play it straight, have a job, a quiet family life.
The Coates brothers being the perfect example....1 set up the Westies gang, the other became an Immunologist in Trinity college.

Complainer said:

But seriously, why do you think that much of the population of Mountjoy comes from a small number of Dublin postcodes? Is this some huge genetic coincidence, or what?

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I am not sure what point you are making. I thought you were making the point that serious crime tends to source from deprived sections of society, which is a Basil Fawlty bleeding obvious.

But maybe you are observing that deprived sections of society tend to be geographically concentrated in a small number of areas. I'm afraid that in a free society where there is a level of economic inequality there will always be a tendency for economic segregation in housing. Only a Soviet system could hope to quell that human instinct.

Or maybe you are asking why is it that children of deprived parents tend to be deprived themselves. Some of it is nature (genetic) for sure. In a pure meritocracy the reasons would be 50% genetic and 50% random. But in our society for the most part I agree that it is environmental and cultural. Again only a Soviet style system can separate children from their parents and bring them all up "equally" in the same environment.

Complainer, perhaps you could clarify which of these points you are complaining about.

Surely deprivation was more widespread, almost universal even, from the 20's up until the 60's - ok there was crime but if deprivation was the key thing underpinning it Ireland should have been more or less ablaze for those decades. I think drugs is probably the new factor and the biggest reason why those postcodes filled Mountjoy.

it probably would have been ablaze except for one thing, the influnce of the church!
or maybe thats too simple...but it had to play some part i think.

Betsy Og said:

Surely deprivation was more widespread, almost universal even, from the 20's up until the 60's - ok there was crime but if deprivation was the key thing underpinning it Ireland should have been more or less ablaze for those decades.

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It's an interesting point. And it shows that in a modern developed economy it is resentment of others rather than absolute deprivation which drives a tiny minority to serious crime. It is quite some time since anyone in this country had to turn to crime in order to survive.

Duke of Marmalade said:

There is no excuse for murder and serious crime in the current state of our society, imperfect as it is and as it always will be. Vinnie made the excuse at a terribly insensitive time.

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I didn't hear Vinnie make excuses for anyone. I heard him asking important questions about the causes of crime. I'm a bit confused about why some people choose to take great offence at such questions.

Duke of Marmalade said:

It's all a bit relative I suppose. Is our society more unequal than others? More unequal than the UK less unequal than the US.

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If I recall the stats from The Spirit Level correctly, the US is way more unequal that Ireland or UK, in terms of income inequality. The Nordic countries and (I think) Japan were most equal, and had a strong correlation to lower crime rates.

Duke of Marmalade said:

So what is your bestist country in the world? Norway? Switzerland? Let's call it Utopia. I'll bet Utopia has its murderers and robbers. And I also bet they source from the deprived sections of that Utopian society. In the words of Basil Fawlty that's stating the bleeding obvious. Does it mean society is to blame or those few who chose robbery and murder?

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I haven't blamed anyone for anything. I've just asked an important question, about why crime is more prevalent in deprived areas. Why do some people get so uppity about asking some questions?

Delboy said:

everyone in this country has options, choices...some decide to go the criminal route (both blue and white collar) and some decide to go the same route as 99% of the population and play it straight, have a job, a quiet family life.

The Coates brothers being the perfect example....1 set up the Westies gang, the other became an Immunologist in Trinity college.

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Never heard that nugget about the Coates before - very interesting, and indeed everybody does have options and choices. But everybody doesn't have the same options, or more specifically, everybody doesn't have access to a basic level of housing, education, healthcare.

We house people in Fatima Mansions, with excrement coming up the drains into their houses, and then we wonder in amazement at the high crime rate in the area.

Duke of Marmalade said:

I am not sure what point you are making. I thought you were making the point that serious crime tends to source from deprived sections of society, which is a Basil Fawlty bleeding obvious.

But maybe you are observing that deprived sections of society tend to be geographically concentrated in a small number of areas. I'm afraid that in a free society where there is a level of economic inequality there will always be a tendency for economic segregation in housing. Only a Soviet system could hope to quell that human instinct.

Or maybe you are asking why is it that children of deprived parents tend to be deprived themselves. Some of it is nature (genetic) for sure. In a pure meritocracy the reasons would be 50% genetic and 50% random. But in our society for the most part I agree that it is environmental and cultural. Again only a Soviet style system can separate children from their parents and bring them all up "equally" in the same environment.

Complainer, perhaps you could clarify which of these points you are complaining about.

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I haven't even started complaining yet. I'm just asking questions. You seem to be trying to twist my questions. Can we just stick to the question I asked - why do most of the inhabitants of Mountjoy come from a small number of Dublin postcodes.

Betsy Og said:

Surely deprivation was more widespread, almost universal even, from the 20's up until the 60's - ok there was crime but if deprivation was the key thing underpinning it Ireland should have been more or less ablaze for those decades. I think drugs is probably the new factor and the biggest reason why those postcodes filled Mountjoy.

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It would be interesting to get a historical analysis. It's not an area I know much about. I wonder if crime was really reported and tracked in the 50s and 60s the way it is now. And drugs might indeed explain the explosion in crime rates, but it doesn't explain the geographic localisation - why does so much of Dublin's drug crime come from a small number of Dublin postcodes?

Complainer said:

why crime is more prevalent in deprived areas.

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Complainer said:

But everybody doesn't have the same options, or more specifically, everybody doesn't have access to a basic level of housing, education, healthcare.

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Complainer said:

We house people in Fatima Mansions, with excrement coming up the drains into their houses, and then we wonder in amazement at the high crime rate in the area.

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Complainer said:

why do most of the inhabitants of Mountjoy come from a small number of Dublin postcodes.

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Complainer said:

why does so much of Dublin's drug crime come from a small number of Dublin postcodes?

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Since you are so intent on everyone else answering these questions, perhaps, maybe this once, you would be so good as to offer your own explanantion?

From my perspective, there are two main points - Poor implementation of billions of taxation rasied for public services and the lack of personal responsibility by those committing the crimes - as per post #9

Title edited to more fully reflect OP and discussion.

from: Thread title (original 'Vincent Browne on the murder of a Garda') changed

Vincent Browne: "Criminality is derived ..from the sordid inequality ..in our society".

Complainer said:

And drugs might indeed explain the explosion in crime rates, but it doesn't explain the geographic localisation - why does so much of Dublin's drug crime come from a small number of Dublin postcodes?

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Isnt it fairly understandable/obvious, i.e. (& without trying to stigmatise/overgeneralise ... though necessarily I must now proceed to do so to make my point.....)

-Poor areas, for some perhaps not great family structure, inter-generational unemployment (if you've never seen the benefits of work to those who care for you, who live aroud you, it isnt something so obvious to strive for), probably a bit of alcoholism thrown in here and there, lack of facilities, lack of social cohesion, feeling of 'the whole world is against me/us' -e.g. you cant get an interview based on your address, lack of hope..... (slipping into melodrama here), plus you condense many persons in this situation into tight geographical areas.

Anyway, all this leads to why people might reach for an escape, being drugs, we may not like it but they do have the effect that you get high, your problems dissappear temporarily, you feel great ..temporarily.

However, drugs cost money, you arent working, you are now addicted - you crave a fix, how are you going to pay for it???, crime.

If you live in a salubrious part of south Dublin you may still feel some disaffection (dont we all, whah??) but if you can pay for your drugs then you dont have to resort to crime to fund it. So you dont pose as many problems for society, and as you are 'diluted' in your geographical area you are less visible.

So all the above which, before anyone points this is out, is I accept more or less a statement of the bleedin' obvious (as the expression goes), explains why those postcodes fill Mountjoy.

The question is does detrimental circumstances make it ok to choose 'the wrong path'? - I dont think so, it may be the easier path, but what path to anything worthwhile was ever easy?

The sad thing is this, and I've spoken to a guy who has had this said to him - is that they are parents whose attitude is "my father never worked, I never worked, and I dont want my child to ever work" - so if a parent doesnt want their child to ever improve their circumstances what chance does that child have?

Complainer said:

But seriously, why do you think that much of the population of Mountjoy comes from a small number of Dublin postcodes? Is this some huge genetic coincidence, or what?

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Correlation is cause, VB wasn't asking anything about causes, simply pointing out correlations that go no way to explain criminality. So no matter how many times you ask why, no one can answer.

We can trot out any correlation to imply causes if we wish, most of those in Mountjoy had a diet that included white bread. I'm not saying anything, I'm just asking the question as to whether you can explain why they're all in Mountjoy and they all have eaten white bread. Q.E.D.

Or that most of those in Mountjoy were claiming social welfare, again I'm not implying anything, no no, couldn't stick my neck out that fare. But there's another correlation for you.

Is it just poverty (in a relative rather than absolute sense) that causes people to resort to armed robbery and murder? Well than why is it only handful of the population from those postcodes that engage in crime? If that was a cause, why not more?

It's great that VB has asked these questions that no one else has asked...except they have for years and conducted numerous studies and come back with the same answer: we just don't know it's far more complicated than glib statements and hiding behind correlations without any substance.

They don't get to go to blackrock college, but then no one I know did either. We all had crummy state schools...I presume the assumption we're supposed to make is that teachers now don't all make a valiant effort to educate, only those in private schools. But then our parents put a focus on our education, they engaged with us, they encouraged us, they supported us. In my case, all while they held down different shift patterns and in some cases two jobs as well as night school.

In the absence of any actual evidence or support that poverty, unemployment or not going to a private school is the cause, I'll offer my own: the parents. The parents aren't being parents, they're too caught up in their own sense of entitlement to being taken care of by the state. They don't set an appropriate view for right and wrong. They allow their kids to get into criminality. The give their kids the excuse of it's the state's fault we're here, it's the banker's fault, it's all those kids who went to Blackrock College's fault. Blame everyone, satisfy your entitlement and fail to recognise that we have a society where there are opportunities and there is an escape, it just sin't handed to you on a plate, you have to dedicate time and effort to it and that's just too much effort for the parents and kids, easier to hold up a credit union.