Case study US Legal Resident with Irish mortgage debt

[Slammer]

Hi folks, wondering if you could provide some guidance regarding expectations I should have given my specific scenario, which I outline below:

• Irish male in his 50s, with wife and kids
• Bought house in Ireland in year 2000
• Mortgage with one of the top 3 Irish banks
• Legal residents of USA since 2011
• We have no intention of returning to Ireland
  
• Sold house remotely in September 2013, under water value-wise: we owe approx 20k euros on the sale
• The bank has our US address
• We were prepared (up to end of 2013) to renegotiate repayments on the balance, but since the bank neglected to nominate an arrears representative to us, and generally ignored us apart from form letters, we stopped all communications.
• They handed this case to Cabot Ireland, I believe
• In the last 2 months the bank has reached out to us via phone x 2 (we did not take the calls); also we have refused to accept 2 x registered letters we believe were from the bank (postmarked Ireland)
• We are now attempting to get to the statute of limitation date we believe to be Oct 2019, when we hope the debt would not be reclaimable. (2013 + 6 = 2019)

Questions:

• Is it likely that the bank will / can pursue us here in the US based on the experience of the group? ie sell the debt to someone onshore in US?
• Does the issuance of registered letters (albeit returned unsigned) reset the start of the statute of limitations?
• Any other option they have to reclaim from us? (we are not worried about judgments in Ireland if they cant touch us here).
• Could there be any IRS implications or Credit Score implication in the US?

Thanks folks...

 

[Bronte]

20K !! Just 20K ! There is no way it is feasable for them to go after you. My advice, non professional, is to ignore them.

I suggest you telephone Mabs. But in all my years on this website I've never heard of a bank going after someone in America. Not unless you're a multi millionarie like David Drumm and Sean Dunne.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

If you owe the money, why don't you pay it?

Or do you just want to stuff the shareholders and taxpayers who own a majority of the Top 3 banks?

And get the other responsible borrowers to pay your mortgage for you?

Brendan

 

[RedOnion]

They handed this case to Cabot Ireland, I believe

You need to work out if the bank handed the case to Cabot to collect for them, or if they sold the debt to Cabot. If the latter, they will be more ruthless in pursuing every avenue possible in getting a summary judgement against you. I don't know if that's something that would be found if you sought finance in the US.

You will find the following thread interesting and it will answer a lot of your questions, and might clarify your understanding of statute of limitations
https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threa...he-bank-does-nothing-or-cant-fit-find.177438/

 

[vandriver]

I know personally of someone who had a 15k credit card debt bought by Cabot asset finance,and apart from a heap of letters, literally nothing else was done.
I think stories about their ruthlessness are just that.

 

[Bronte]

I know personally of someone who had a 15k credit card debt bought by Cabot asset finance,and apart from a heap of letters, literally nothing else was done.
I think stories about their ruthlessness are just that.

Only if you're not worth pursing. Someone abroad owing 20 k is not worth it. A few serious looking legal letters is the name of the game. Percentages game.

 

[Slammer]

Redonion: Thank you for your reply. I have read the thread to which you refer.

If you sell your house and there is a shortfall on the mortgage and the lender does nothing about it, the debt will lapse after 6 years.

The definition of "the lender does nothing about it" is the nub here, I feel. We have received phone calls recently (unanswered) and registered letters (all refused unsigned). Is that the extent of it, or does anyone know what can come next to reset the clock?

 

[Slammer]

Thank you for your reply.

I have received similar feedback from another source that is quite distinct from this forum.

 

[Laramie]

20K !! Just 20K ! There is no way it is feasable for them to go after you. My advice, non professional, is to ignore them.

What terrible advice. Pay back your debt, enter in to some agreement, or don't and wait for the knock on the door. Interest will keep adding to the debt.

 

[Jim2007]

The definition of "the lender does nothing about it" is the nub here, I feel. We have received phone calls recently (unanswered) and registered letters (all refused unsigned). Is that the extent of it, or does anyone know what can come next to reset the clock?

You can avoid your debts by hiding from your creditors! As along as they make all reasonable attempts to track you down, which they appear to be doing, they will not fall short on the statute.

 

[RedOnion]

I think stories about their ruthlessness are just that.

Ah, you're probably right. Just stories.

Just for clarity, there are different flavours of Cabot. I am not talking about standard cases where a bank passes a case to Cabot to manage for them. That's a numbers game with a few letters, and they take final direction from the bank on what option to pursue in each case. I'm talking about where Cabot (Cabot Asset Purchases) have bought the debt from the bank. They follow an entirely different strategy where it's their own money.

Cabot Asset Purchases only made 126 applications for summary judgements in the high court in 2016. Look at the Masters list for any date this year and you'll find they have applications on it.

Just stories - It's like they're fluffy puppies giving away money!

There's a cost to making these applications, so they only do it when they think they can actually recover the debt on the back of it, and as a matter of last resort - they have to evidence borrower won't engage. It's not unusual for proceedings to start just before statute of limitations expires. Something like registered post returned is plenty of evidence to prove debtor is refusing to engage.

If a debtor is living abroad they have to decide if it's worthwhile pursuing. A few factors, apart from the amount, include knowing the debtors address for certain, knowing they have the means to pay, and finally whether or not they can get the judgement recognised by a court in the jurisdiction.

Although 20k is a small amount, I wouldn't be making the assumption they won't bother, and I definitely wouldn't just expect the statute of limitations to take care of it - a judgement extends that, and gives them time to decide if they take further. A summary judgement can be made on an ex-parte basis, so the first you might hear about it is after its granted.

 

[Slammer]

Cabot Asset Purchases only made 126 applications for summary judgements in the high court in 2016. Look at the Masters list for any date this year and you'll find they have applications on it.

Thank you. Do you have a URL to view these cases? Do these cases list the jurisdictions? Do these cases list the amounts owed?

 

[RedOnion]

Here's an example of an Experian report of judgements. [broken link removed]

I'm sure there are other ways to get them, but most banks pay either Experian or Stubbs Gazette to provide the data.

 

[Slammer]

Thanks again Red, appreciate your patience. Some additional questions if I may:

• On reviewing this Gazette document, all individuals and companies listed have Irish addresses. What should I read into that fact given that I now reside in the US? Where do the "Irish to overseas" reports live?
• 2016 Irish times article I found mentions how Cabot Asset Purchases went after UB debt that was in excess of 100k euros. These are Property Developers, other "high flyers". In your opinion, how likely are they to bother for 20k private mortgage that would have to actioned offshore, for a "nobody" like me?
• Once they have gotten a summary judgement, I take it the time for negotiation/restructuring of the debt has passed?
  • What exactly are their options then?
  • Can they come after me at my place of work?
  • Can they seize assets, garnish salary?
  • What else can happen? eg impact to US Credit Score, IRS etc.
• Would you recommend that we accept the next registered letter (if there is one) simply to find out what is going on? Ie which Cabot is now involved? I believe both previous letters were post-marked Ireland.

 

[RedOnion]

Firstly, I've misled you if you think I'm an expert in this area. I have very little direct experience of debt recovery cases, and any I have is on the bank side so I certainly won't be advising you how to walk away from debt. However I have seen cases where borrowers mistakenly thought they were in the clear based on bar stool advice.

On reviewing this Gazette document, all individuals and companies listed have Irish addresses.

I'm not sure if the report is limited to Irish addresses for their client base.
I don't have much reason to read these, as any data I see is electronic.

In your opinion, how likely are they to bother for 20k private mortgage that would have to actioned offshore, for a "nobody" like me?

This depends. If they're sure they'll get the 20k, they might try it. Remember they can also claim their expenses.
If they are going through other cases in the same state as you, they might take a chance and throw your case in with another few. I'm not sure how these work in practice.

Once they have gotten a summary judgement, I take it the time for negotiation/restructuring of the debt has passed?

Not necessarily. Typically this is when the borrower sits up and starts negotiation. But their position is strengthened - you need them to mark the judgement satisfied.

• What exactly are their options then?

• Can they come after me at my place of work?

• Can they seize assets, garnish salary?

Only in Ireland. They have to take the Irish judgement to a court in your state and have it recognised there. Then they can enforce it there.

What else can happen? eg impact to US Credit Score, IRS etc.

Nothing unless judgement is recognised there. However, the judgement is published and can be searched if they know you were previously in Ireland.

Would you recommend that we accept the next registered letter (if there is one) simply to find out what is going on

My lay understanding is that you accepting doesn't change anything in relation to statute of limitations. It validates that they have your address.
However, I'm in no position to advise you what to do.

 

[Thirsty]

IANAL

My understand of the limitation is that they have 6 years to issue a summons. If no summons is issued in that time, the debt is statute barred.

If it was me, I'd sit tight & do nothing.