US camcorder - NTSC still an issue ?

Z

zag

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I'm hoping to buy a camcorder when over in the US in the next few weeks, but someone has raised an issue which is causing me a little worry. I'm pretty sure that the whole High-Def (1080i/1080p/etc . . .) stuff has put paid to the PAL/NTSC issue, but I can't seem to find confirmation anywhere.

My understanding is that a digital camcorder, recording Hi-Def content to a hard drive, blu-ray DVD or memory card doesn't care/know about PAL/NTSC . . . . all it is doing is recording the image for playback, where the playback device might worry about PAL/NTSC.

I can see how playing the content back from (say) a DVD player which only supports NTSC (if such a thing still exists) might cause problems if you only had an PAL-capable TV, but my understanding was that Hi-Def sources (sat receivers, DVD players, X-Box) knows nothing of PAL/NTSC and don't need to know.

Anyone know if I'm on the correct track here, or if there are any other gotchas I need to think of before saving myself about €400 by buying in the US ?

z
 
There are indeed two broad (and many more narrow) flavours of HD, the main difference between Europe and the US is that HD in the PAL world (Europe etc.) is 25 frames per second, and in the NTSC world (US, Japan etc) its 30 frames per second.

(The main reason for these different frame rates, believe it or not, has more to do with the standard power supply than any TV engineering issues: US power has 60 cycles per second, whereas European power cycles at 50 times a second - this translates into 60 or 50 interlaced frames per second depending on where you live.

But it's a moot point in some cases. The higher end HD cameras can shoot both 60i or 50i. But the bottom line is that you'll have problems with the lower end gear, unless your TV equipment is capable of playing back your source.

Clear as mud, eh?

But you may well be able to buy the European model in the US anyway, especially if you go to one of the better stores like B&H Photo in New York.
 
I think it's a matter of being careful and educating yourself.

I bought a Sony hard-disk camcorder in the US this year. I deliberately didn't get a high-definition one, as I don't think the standards are well enough defined and stable yet.

It works just fine: it'll play direct to the TV, or I can cut DVDs through a PC from it.

It's a Sony DCR-SR300 by the way. In general, a great little thing, but has the most woeful user interface known to mankind.
 
Yeeeeeeeargh.

Thanks for the info. Armed with the reference to B&H I checked out their site. They have two versions of a similar camcorder here - one just described as 'product name' and another described as 'product name PAL'

Unfortunately getting the PAL version makes all the difference between $800 and $1,300. Looks like it will be back to the research again.

Does anyone know whether the Panasonic TX32LX70 tellie will be able to play back both versions or whether the Panasonic HDC-SD5 will be able to shoot in 50i & 60i ? I've been on to Panasonic for info, but they are pretty poor on the info front.

My brain is starting to hurt . . .

z
 
zag said:
Some research this morning appears to put my mind at rest . . .

http://labnol.blogspot.com/2006/10/camcorder-buying-guide-decide-between.html

http://ask.metafilter.com/31811/Ugh-NTSC

But there's still a niggling doubt . . . some of the stuff says you can play back from the camera no problem on your PC when connected via firewire, but you won't be able to edit or record. Does anyone know the logic behind that ?

z
Click to expand...

I have a US version Sony DCR HC30 camcorder which is NTSC. It doesn't playback on my old PAL TV but it does download to my PC via firewire. I then edit the videos using MS Moviemaker. No issues as you can select PAL or NTSC on Moviemaker.
 
chippengael - thanks for that, it puts my mind at rest.

So, when you go to burn a DVD from Moviemaker you get the choice between burning NTSC or PAL ?

z
 
I can't check until this evening, but in my case (Sony DCR-SR300, and presumably any SRxxx) I've only used the supplied s/w on a Windows PC, and I seem to recall bein g able to set it to PAL somewhere or other. Anyway, the bottom line is that it works just fine.
 
Good news - got the camcorder (in the US) last week, pushed the record button and all was well. I connected the thing up to my HD telly and everything worked as expected when I played back, so the NTSC thing doesn't seem to come into it at the 'connect it up with wires' level.

z
 
Zag,

Did you get the Panasonic HDC-SD5 in the end? That records onto an SD memory card but comes with a DVD burner to allow you to archive your movies, right?

I'm heading to Chicago next week and am planning to pick up a camcorder if I get there, I'm booked with Aer Lingus:(
 
We went with the SX5 instead of the SD5.

The SD5 (according to what I have seen in reviews) *only* records in HD. There is no option to record in standard def.

The SX5 will record to card in HD, or to DVD in standard def or HD.

I decided that since we didn't really know the impact of recording in HD only (and all the editing tools seem to just be releasing HD editing parts now, rather than it being a tried and trusted technology) we would go for the safer option and get the DVD/standard def option as well as HD.

The added bulk of the onboard DVD drive wasn't too much (or so I keep telling myself) and we would have to have lugged the stand-alone DVD drive around on our travels anyway.

One thing to note (per the early hands-on reviews) is that the battery is pretty clunky, but I can live with it. It is a different colour than the camcorder body and it it pretty big, but as long as it gives me power I'm happy enough.

I ordered from Circuit City - they have the option to have it delivered to the nearest store. So, if you know where you will be, that would be the safest and quickest way to order it. Best Buy do the same thing also. The advantage is that you don't have to wait around in the evening for the spotty person to see if it is in stock, etc . . . . it's just there. You could try http://www.bhphotovideo.com for a mail-order option.

Finally - you can't beat the value proposition. The US list price of the SX5 is $899 and the SD5 is $999 - some retailers are already discounting it slightly. The UK list is about £700 for both models, and the Irish list is €1,200 as far as I can tell. That makes it half price in the US and sure beats most camcoders you can get here in the €600 price range.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but I couldn't work out why the SD5 (without the DVD drive) costs $100 less than the SX5 - possibly because people will pay a premium for the smaller size.

I've just noticed that the SD5 comes with the burner - the early marketing stuff listed it as an optional extra (at a cost of $135 or so). That explains the price differential.

z
 
The price differential between the HD and SD version is because SD equipment will be obsolete very soon. And the SX5 looks like it has substantial design upgrades. But that means if you're happy with SD, you can save a few quid, and Panasonic equipment is excellent.

Having said that, you can buy excellent SD Mini-DV cameras for around €300-400. And the DV compression looks a lot better than the Mpeg or Jpeg compression on the hard drive/card/DVD recorder cameras.

But it's a nice cam and hope it works out for you.
 
extopia said:
And the DV compression looks a lot better than the Mpeg or Jpeg compression on the hard drive/card/DVD recorder cameras.
Click to expand...

That why I'm thinking about a HD miniDV camcorder. Plus I can archive the footage on relatively cheap DV tapes. Panasonic don't make one so the Canon HV20 or the Sony HC5 are looking like good options.

Some potential drawbacks/problems is that it's a linear format and I will have NTSC formatted footage on the DV tapes so I will always need a NTSC camcorder to play it back on TV or even transfer it onto a PC.
 
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