Unsold new apartment blocks; the irish "sub-prime" for banks?

P

p45

Guest
What banks have funded all these empty developements? Within a short radius of where I am there are many empty complexes complete and almost; a tower at the Blackhouse luas stop, the new Fatima mansions, Landsowne valley, the old Islandbridge army barracks. Every area must have it's share of these.
 
I've no confidence in the "vacant" apartment blocks figures. Anecdotal evidence suggests that a very high proportion of "vacant" apartments are occupied by tenants of landlords who operate for cash and are not declaring tax/registered with PRTB.

The figures used by officialdom are based on declared tenants by legally compliant landlords and take no account of the undeclaring landlords.

Census figures have the same flaws - these landlords instruct their tenants not to fill in census forms.
 
csirl said:
I've no confidence in the "vacant" apartment blocks figures. Anecdotal evidence suggests that a very high proportion of "vacant" apartments are occupied by tenants of landlords who operate for cash and are not declaring tax/registered with PRTB.
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That may be the case to a certain extent, but if you walk or drive through any Irish town or city (and indeed many villages), you will notice large numbers of new apartments and houses that don't have any evidence of people living in them, eg, no curtains on windows etc. On top of that, many have (increasingly forlorn) "for sale" signs and banners attached. I refuse to believe that there are tenants hiding under the beds in many of these properties.
 
csirl said:
Census figures have the same flaws - these landlords instruct their tenants not to fill in census forms.
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I think you're underestimating the effort that the census enumerators put into addressing this issue. Where a property appeared unoccupied, enquiries were made with the local postman, neighbours, etc, before it was deemed to be empty.

If there really are people living in them, then they never answer their door or receive post, and must be ideal neighbours because they make no noise and only come and go under cover of darkness!
 
Berni said:
If there really are people living in them, then they never answer their door or receive post, and must be ideal neighbours because they make no noise and only come and go under cover of darkness!
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..and never turn on lights
 
Perhaps a ridiculous idea but maybe more accurate figures may be availble from the ESB - any unit below a certain threshold could be deamed as empty...
 

There was a big issue during the census with enumerators complaining that they could not access large apartment blocks i.e. walk around the hallways and knock on doors. All they could do is leave the census forms in post boxes and hope for a reply.

Take your typical large apartment development with 10s if not 100s of apartments in a building complex with underground carpark and pedestrian entrance opening onto street. Unless you own or rent an apartment, you cannot even get into the complex. Many apartments are not even visible to the public e.g. at rear or opening onto internal courtyard. My office is near a lot of apartment blocks in Dublin city centre, including a couple of developments where the media are claiming have a high level of vacancy. The ones visible from the street or adjacent properties are all kitted out with blinds/net curtains. There is no way to tell from the exterior if they are occupied or not. But you can see a steady stream of people going in/out etc. Judging by the fact that migrant workers hauling suitcases into these complexes is a very very common sight around this area it would appear that, while turnover may be high, business appears to be brisk.

I accept that in smaller developments in rural areas, it is easy to tell and maybe they are vacant, but there is no evidence of same in Dublin.
 
csirl said:
I accept that in smaller developments in rural areas, it is easy to tell and maybe they are vacant, but there is no evidence of same in Dublin.
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No evidence? So the OP is mistaken?

 
csirl said:
I accept that in smaller developments in rural areas, it is easy to tell and maybe they are vacant, but there is no evidence of same in Dublin.
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So you think approx 10% of all housing stock in Dublin is occupied by these stealth tenants? Or that the CSO imagined them?
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How do the 16,000+ places to rent in Dublin tie into your 100% occupancy theory? http://daftwatch.atspace.com/

I accept that gated apartments made life difficult for enumerators, but in general in complexes such as you describe, there is an intercom system at the gate.
 
So all these apparently empty apartment blocks are actually packed to the rafters with foreign nationals being oppressed by their tax evading landlords?
 
Berni said:
So all these apparently empty apartment blocks are actually packed to the rafters with foreign nationals being oppressed by their tax evading landlords?
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...and exploited by their fat-cat profiteering employers
 
So all these apparently empty apartment blocks are actually packed to the rafters with foreign nationals being oppressed by their tax evading landlords?
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I'd say its more symbiotic.

I've a friend who's got a number of rental properties. When he advertises for new tenants in any of them, he's always gets a couple of calls from "agents" in China wanting to rent for "clients" - cash in hand, no questions asked. (He never accommodates them).
 
I'm confused as to what you mean - are you referring to the 'massage parlours' or do you mean illegal foreign workers put 10 to a room by their employer?
 
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Ah now csirl, The Atheist whistling as he Passes the Graveyard Syndrome!

Please can I borrow those rose-tinted glasses that make empty apartment blocks in Lucan, Clonee and Swords look occupied!
 
I'm confused as to what you mean - are you referring to the 'massage parlours' or do you mean illegal foreign workers put 10 to a room by their employer?
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Referring to foreign workers. Not necessarily illegal, though many probably are.
 
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