Travel - what is the legal obligation and what is advisory under Level 3?

Brendan Burgess

Brendan Burgess

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I live in Dublin. I presume that I am breaking the law if I travel outside Dublin to go for a walk or for social reasons such as a funeral? Or is it just advisory?

I have no essential reason to leave Dublin. Are essential reasons defined? Education, essential work and caring?

I am confused by the Gardai saying that they have no enforcement powers?

If I meet a Garda checkpoint on the way to Wicklow, will they turn me around?

Is there also a 5km rule?

Brendan
 
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* Have been very busy since returning from my pre-restrictions staycation... but responding quickly to this one

5km rule is only in Level 5. Essential reasons were defined in the earlier lockdown phase and I assume would be used in Level 5.

There are no penalties attached to leaving county for non-essential reasons.
The only specific penalties attached to Level 3 for private citizens is organizing a gathering e.g.
Anyone organising a gathering away from a home setting that breaches the maximum numbers allowed at such gatherings is subject to enforcement and could be fined up to €2,500 or jailed for up to six months on conviction. It is not an offence to attend such a gathering, but it is an offence to host or organise one.

If a Guard stops you and you insist on continuing on your way they have no legal basis to stop you.
They might be able to turn you back from a specific location under existing public order legislation if they think it is dangerously over-crowded.
If there's a rowdy public gathering going on, they can use existing public order legislation to order people to "move on" and disperse or charge you under "disorderly conduct in a public place".

The Government is not giving gardaí any additional powers to enforce the new restrictions, so if people do not break other laws, then gardai can only engage, educate and encourage them to comply.
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/...navirus-garda/

Full breakdown here by Irish Times:
www.irishtimes.com

Policing Covid-19: What enforcement powers do gardaí have?

Many measures under Living with Covid-19 plan rely on public goodwill, not enforcement
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
 
But, i think the spirit of this thing, is we go along with the advisory rules, it is a very serious pandemic after all.

Government has indicated multiple times, if there is large scale “non compliance“ they will act and bring in either on the spot fines, (By passing court process)or, enhanced legally binding powers for the Gardai. Thats a last resort,and they would be slow to go down this route, as a public buyin is a much less bumpy road.

Level 3 restrictions are spelt out here:
www.irishtimes.com

Life under Level 3: What stays open and where can I travel?

Level 3 Q&A: Schools and crèches remain open, only 25 allowed to weddings
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
 
Setting up checkpoints on the M50 and other motorways is just ridiculous. I could be using the M50 to go to the shops, hospital, school, work, visit family, visit friends, go for a drive, or a 100 other reasons and not break any restrictions because I am staying in Dublin. Instead they cause huge tailbacks to try to discourage people. If they don't want people to travel, then stop people travelling. This wishy washy in between levels, don't travel but we can't stop you travel, go to school but don't use the M50 is just doing my head in.
 
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Sunny said:
Setting up checkpoints on the M50 and other motorways is just ridiculous. I could be using the M50 to go to the shops, hospital, school, work, visit family, visit friends, go for a drive, or a 100 other reasons and not break any restrictions because I am staying in Dublin. Instead they cause huge tailbacks to try to discourage people. If they don't want people to travel, then stop people travelling. This wishy washy in between levels, don't travel but we can't stop you travel, go to school but don't use the M50 is just doing my head in.
Click to expand...

If AGS did have powers of enforcement this morning, wouldn't they still need checkpoints?
How would they stop people travelling otherwise? It's a Catch-22.
The inconvenience of the checkpoints will be there whether they have specific powers or not, just they would be more effective.
I suppose you could argue at the moment they are in places of inconvenience rather than where likeliest to catch offenders...
 
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fayf said:
Level 3 restrictions are spelt out here:
Life under Level 3: What stays open and where can I travel?
Click to expand...

But this completely confuses me

Can I travel outside my county?
You are advised to stay inside your county unless you have to travel for work, educational or other essential purposes.

I don't want to break the spirit of the rules. But I often drive down to the close Wicklow Mountains , get out of my car, walk up a mountain, get back into my car and come home. I won't stop in a shop or cafe on the way there or back.

If I am advised not to do this, I will ignore that advice as it's obviously safer than having lunch outside a restaurant or getting on a bus or going to Tesco. If it's against the law to do it, I won't break the law.


Brendan
 
odyssey06 said:
If AGS did have powers of enforcement this morning, wouldn't they still need checkpoints?
How would they stop people travelling otherwise? It's a Catch-22.
The inconvenience of the checkpoints will be there whether they have specific powers or not, just they would be more effective.
I suppose you could argue at the moment they are in places of inconvenience rather than where likeliest to catch offenders...
Click to expand...

Yeah they would need checkpoints but there would be a reason for them. There was absolutely no reason for them today apart from inconveniencing people and making a show. If they want to stop people travelling outside their county for non-essential reasons, then go around every single hotel, B&B, Self Catering, Holiday home and check where residents are from but they are not doing that. Thousands of people are allowed to enter Dublin and leave Dublin for work. People are only being asked to work at home if possible. If I decide that it is not possible, I shouldn't be stopped at a Garda checkpoint explaining how my broadband is broken.

If they don't want people travelling, then move to level 5 and introduce the 2km or 5km from home. Then people are clear. Then if you are one of the few cars on the M50, you can't really complain about being stopped and asked where you are going. Just like it was during the lockdown. Dublin has a population of 1.4m people that are allowed travel within the County plus thousands of others who are entitled to travel to and from every day. The idea that checkpoints to check on regulations that aren't even regulations but advice with no enforcement mechanism achieves anything but annoy people is laughable. Thousands of people were stopped today for doing noting wrong. Trucks and commercial vehicles were stuck in traffic jams. As I said, either bring in restrictions or don't. We are 7 months down the line and still faffing about
 
What is 'essential travel'? The reason I ask, my definition of essential travel could be different to a guard who stops and asks me for the purpose of my journey.
 
kitty81 said:
I don't want to break the spirit of the rules. But I often drive down to the close Wicklow Mountains , get out of my car, walk up a mountain, get back into my car and come home. I won't stop in a shop or cafe on the way there or back.

If I am advised not to do this, I will ignore that advice as it's obviously safer than having lunch outside a restaurant or getting on a bus or going to Tesco. If it's against the law to do it, I won't break the law.

Brendan
Click to expand...
You see Brendan that is part of the problem here. People in the GAA world have taken a similar view regarding matches, feeling it is safer to go and watch a match even though it has been advised not to, instead of going into a pub to watch it being streamed onto a tv (and having a plate of chips at the same time).
There are lots of arguments that can be made that we know make logical sense but ultimately I think we're going to have to do what we're being advised to do in order to get this thing under control. I don't think we can have a law for all these guidelines can we?
 
Brendan Burgess said:
If I am advised not to do this, I will ignore that advice as it's obviously safer than having lunch outside a restaurant or getting on a bus or going to Tesco. If it's against the law to do it, I won't break the law.
Click to expand...

It's contrary to this statutory instrument, just there is no penalty attaching to breach of said statutory instrument.

Look for the section on page 13: "a reasonable excuse for travelling from the county of residence in the case of a relevant person."
It also defines what constitutes a reasonable excuse.

 
Very good article in The Journal - to clarify, leaving your county without reasonable excuse constitutes a "civil offence".

There are three kinds of restrictions that the government is currently using to address Covid-19: advice, a “civil offence”, and a criminal offence. Advice is just that —advice—and there is no rule written down in law and, as a result, no way to enforce it.
A “civil offence”, as the Tánaiste described it, refers to a non-penal provision in the Covid regulations. This is a novel concept, not known to the law. The regulations state that a particular thing shall not be done, but there is legal consequence—no penalty for doing it, and no way to force compliance with it.
A criminal offence, or penal provision, allows for people to be prosecuted for non-conformity; under the current regime, with a potential maximum penalty of a €2500 fine or up to six months imprisonment.

www.thejournal.ie

Advice vs Law: Here's how gardaí are permitted to enforce the new Level 3 restrictions

David Kenny, Assistant Professor of Law at Trinity College, says depriving gardai of Covid-19 enforcement powers could undermine the whole effort.
www.thejournal.ie www.thejournal.ie
 
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Just back in Carlow from Dublin , it was an essential journey , not stopped once . Plenty of Garda presence on the M7 southbound at one spot but they were not stopping while I was passing by but very slow getting to that spot.
 
On Wednesday I was stopped going from my house in a very remote and not particularly touristy part of rural Ireland, to a nearby beach. Guard asked where I was going and where I had come from. I explained and he asked if I was aware of the new restrictions. I said yes...but my understanding is that we can still travel within the county? He rolled his eyes and said that's not enforced. He let me go and I went on my way. Now what was the earthly point of all that?? At least I learned something: that I could travel anywhere I want as the new restrictions aren't enforced. Otherwise a complete waste of time and resources.
 
Garda slowing traffic close to where I live checking tax, insurance, NCT certs are up to date. Just slowing traffic and waving them through if all is ok. They are not stopping anyone unless these are not in order.....no asking the purpose of the journey...So i could have travelled from anywhere..
 
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I have passed by this same checkpoint at least four times since and have yet to see a vehicle of any kind or registration number stopped.
This is just an exercise it seems.
 
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