Trading212 Increase Euro Interest to 4.20%

One problem I see is people making investment decisions based on a rate being 33% versus 41%, when as far as I know the rate to compare for practically everyone is 37% versus 41%.

(we're told of the PRSI rate rising over 5 years to 4.7% - though who knows where the 41% rate will be by then)
 
I am thinking of investing more than 20,000 euro in Trading212.

As per the website:
"..the value of your client funds and client assets held with Trading 212 is protected by the ICF up to a maximum of €20,000. In addition to the ICF, Trading 212 Markets Ltd. provides its clients with free private insurance from Lloyd’s of London, giving coverage of up to 1 million Euro. ".

These seems to suggest that sums over 20,000 euro are safe. Anyone have an opinion?
 
Protection:
- All client assets are segregated and not lent out (unless approved).
- 20k investor protection provides protection against the broker collapsing. But not capital protection.
- The 1,000,000 insurance provides coverage provides protection against the broker collapsing. But not capital protection.
- Money that is deposited with Trading212 that gets re-deposited with other banks is also subject to deposit protection of 100k per person according to Trading212.
- Money that deposited with Trading212 that is re-invested in a MMF (without a personal stake in a MMF) has the 20k and 1,000,000 protection but does not have capital protection.

In a nutshell - I think it is very low risk.
 
What did you decide in the end here? I'm considering the same - going above the 20k level, keen to hear any opines on this.
 
I've been reading up on when DIRT applies to investments and I'm not sure if it applies to the cash account in Trading 212.

The legislative basis for DIRT in Ireland is S256+S257 of the TCA Act 1997 and section 267M of the same Act for deposits from other EU countries.

Sections 256 and 257 provide, in essence, that DIRT applies to interest gained from relevant deposits.

"Interest" is defined as: "any interest of money whether yearly or otherwise, including any amount, whether or not described as interest, paid in consideration of the making of a deposit, and, as respects a building society, includes any dividend or other distribution in respect of shares in the society; but any amount consisting of an excess of the amount received on the redemption of any holding of A.C.C. Bonus Bonds — First Series, issued by ACC Bank plc, over the amount paid for the holding shall not be treated as interest for the purposes of this Chapter;"

A "deposit" is defined as: "a sum of money paid to a relevant deposit taker on terms under which it will be repaid with or without interest and either on demand or at a time or in circumstances agreed by or on behalf of the person making the payment and the person to whom it is made;"

A "relevant deposit" is defined as a deposit held by a "relevant deposit taker" subject to eight specific exceptions. These apply where the deposit:

1. Is made by, and the interest on which is beneficially owned by—
(i) a relevant deposit taker,
(ii) the National Treasury Management Agency,
(iii) the State acting through the National Treasury Management Agency,
(iv) the Central Bank of Ireland, or
(v) Icarom plc,

2. is a debt on a security issued by the relevant deposit taker and listed on a stock exchange,

3. in the case of a relevant deposit taker resident in the State for the purposes of corporation tax, is held at a branch of the relevant deposit taker situated outside the State,

4. which, in the case of a relevant deposit taker not resident in the State for the purposes of corporation tax, is held otherwise than at a branch of the relevant deposit taker situated in the State,

5. which is a deposit denominated in a foreign currency made—
(i) by a person other than an individual before the 1st day of January, 1993, or
(ii) by an individual before the 1st day of June, 1991,
but, where on or after the 1st day of June, 1991, and before the 1st day of January, 1993, a deposit denominated in a foreign currency is made by an individual to a relevant deposit taker with whom the individual had a deposit denominated in the same foreign currency immediately before the 1st day of June, 1991, such a deposit shall not be regarded as a relevant deposit,

6. which is made on or after the 1st day of January, 1993, by, and the interest on which is beneficially owned by—
(I) a company which is or will be within the charge to corporation tax in respect of the interest, or
(II) a pension scheme,
and
(ii) in respect of which a declaration of the kind mentioned in section 265 has been made to the relevant deposit taker,

7. in respect of which—
(i) no person resident in the State is beneficially entitled to any interest, and
(ii) a declaration of the kind mentioned in section 263 has been made to the relevant deposit taker, or

8. (i) the interest on which is exempt—
(I) from income tax under Schedule D by virtue of section 207 (1)(b), or
(II) from corporation tax by virtue of section 207 (1)(b) as it applies for the purposes of corporation tax under section 76 (6),
and
(ii) in respect of which a declaration of the kind mentioned in section 266 has been made to the relevant deposit taker;

A "relevant deposit taker" is defined as
(a) a person who is a holder of a licence granted under section 9 of the Central Bank Act, 1971 , or a person who holds a licence or other similar authorisation under the law of any other Member State of the European Communities which corresponds to a licence granted under that section,
(b) a building society,
(c) a trustee savings bank within the meaning of the Trustee Savings Banks Acts, 1863 to 1989,
(d) ACC Bank plc,
(e) ICC Bank plc,
(f) ICC Investment Bank Limited,
(g) the Post Office Savings Bank;

Section 267M of the Act essentially applies the provisions of section 256 and 257 mutatis mutandis to “specified interest”. This means interest arising in an EU Member State which would be deposit interest subject to deposit interest retention tax (DIRT) if it were payable in Ireland.

The definition of “relevant deposit taker” mentioned above is adapted for the purposes of “specified interest”. If the EU institution providing the deposit is equivalent to a bank (which already includes EU banks), a building society (which is defined separately in section 256(1) to include EU building societies), a trustee savings bank, a credit union or the Post Office Savings Bank then DIRT will apply.

Summary

It appears that DIRT only applies to interest gained from deposits in other EU countries where the provider of the deposit product is equivalent to one of the bodies listed in the Irish definition of a "relevant deposit taker" – i.e. they are equivalent to a licensed bank, a building society, a trustee savings bank, a credit union or a Post Office Savings bank.

So, while DIRT would apply to Trade Republic and N26 because they provide deposit products and are both German banks, DIRT would not apply to a deposit product offered by Trading 212 because it is not equivalent to a licensed bank, a building society, a trustee savings bank, a credit union or a Post Office Savings bank.

The above view has been informed by my reading of the revenue guidance on the relevant sections here: https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/documents/notes-for-guidance/tca/part08.pdf

Completely possible I've gotten something wrong. The fact that you may not have a stake in the QMMF Trading 212 invests in seems completely irrelevant to the question as to whether DIRT applies to the product.
 
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Trading 212 tax due is presumably income tax at marginal rate + USC + PRSI.
 
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That is the first time that I have seen someone quote the legislation on this rather than the Revenue!

The legislation is so dated. Such old fashioned wording to describe bank interest. Many products mentioned that do not exist anymore.

I have read a lot on this topic and bank interest and broker interest are never distinguished in terms of treatment.

The law allows for "similar authorisation" to the bank authorisations in Ireland. Granted, brokers are not banks but they are not too dissimilar either. They both are deposit taking authorised institutions.

Also, T212 re-deposit your deposit in other banks including JP Morgan. JP Morgan is an authorised bank.

The Revenue says that deposit interest applies to "financial institutions" and then lists what financial institutions can include but does not limit the definition of a financial institution.

I would be shocked if Revenue distinguished a different treatment between brokers and banks for a largely identical product.

It's just poor wording in the legislation in terms of what is a financial institution - it has not moved with the times.
 
I'm coming at this fairly fresh so if revenue are doing something in practice that's different from what the legislation actually requires that's interesting.

The law allows for "similar authorisation" to the bank authorisations in Ireland. Granted, brokers are not banks but they are not too dissimilar either. They both are deposit taking authorised institutions.
The relevant provision relates specifically to operating under a banking licence (Section 9 of the Central Bank Act, 1971– https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1971/act/24/section/9/enacted/en/html#sec9).

The reference to "similar authorisation" refers specifically to the form of authorisation rather than the subject matter of the authorisation. The subject matter of the licence / authorisation must be to operate as a bank (it must "correspond" to a licence granted under that section 9).

See relevant process here which is now run by the ECB: https://www.centralbank.ie/regulati...ors/credit-institutions/authorisation-process. Also here: https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/def...n-process/gns-4-4-3-3-guidelines.pdf?sfvrsn=0

The relevant test when seeing if DIRT is applicable to a non-EU deposit product is if the product was provided from Ireland would DIRT be applicable. For a deposit taker to be a relevant deposit taker they must correspond to one of the seven kinds of institutions listed in the definition. Brokers are not listed in the definition so I don't understand how any product they provide could be subject to DIRT (unless they were also operating under an EU authorised banking licence).


The Revenue guidance on the relevant provisions seems to be clear imo.

They state that: "The tax must be deducted at source out of interest paid or credited on certain deposits (“relevant deposits”) of Irish residents with “relevant deposit takers” (namely, the licensed banks, credit unions, the Post Office Savings Bank and the Building Societies). In these notes the term “financial institutions” is, in general, used to denote references to “relevant deposit takers”.

Relevant deposit takers are specifically defined in the legislation.

Legislation takes priority over any discretion revenue has. Revenue wouldn't have the capacity to overrule.
 
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Also I agree it's completely archaic but it's within Member States' discretion in this case what level of tax they apply to deposit products. Ireland seems to have decided that deposit products provided by certain specific institutions should receive more favourable tax treatment than other kinds of institutions. Until they change the legislation this would appear to remain the case.
 
Also, T212 re-deposit your deposit in other banks including JP Morgan. JP Morgan is an authorised bank.

This may have legs.

My main issue is that the definition of a deposit requires it to be "a sum of money paid to a relevant deposit taker". Where the money is forwarded on to another bank the consumer hasn't paid the money to the relevant deposit taker in that case.

The flip side of this is that the definition of a deposit allows them to be made "on behalf of the person making the payment".

I can't say for sure though.

You'd also need to be able to strictly differentiate between interest accrued from T212 investing in a money market fund or in a deposit. From what I understand the contract with T212 doesn't provide for this - they pool the money and you get the specified 4.2% interest rate.
 
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the latest T212 app shows whether your cash is held in a Bank or a QMMF, useful, mine is 100% in a Bank....
 
Yeah that is interesting, it shows the split between Banks and QMMFs. 100% in Bank here also.

Nice feature. Interesting that 100% is still in bank deposits. Looks like the QMMF aspect is possibly still not live.