Toxic Masculinity

This is something we're hearing so much about I'm reluctant to dismiss it entirely as 'boys will be boys'. The ante is upped considerably by using the term 'Rape Culture'.

Given another thread was taken down there should be no mention in this conversation of a certain recent case.

So, though I am a man I don't claim to be plugged into the zeitgeist of men - bit auld for that now... Is this a rebranding of how men have always been or has the situation gotten appreciably worse to justify these new tags? My experience was of being fairly oblivious to girls as a boy, as a teenager it was all lust & crude jokes (being in an all boys school - not rugby, but not sure that is significant - I barely knew any girls by the time I did the leaving). Into college and I acclimatised to normal society, women were fellow students, future colleagues etc etc. That is probably a typical enough scenario.

So what's the story nowadays?, is it eternal teenagers?, has the ubiquity of porn raised expectations and lessened respect? I would have thought the younger generations were more tolerant (homophobia I gather is much less, even at the 'banter' level), probably more sexually liberal (in all senses - not sure that is entirely a good thing...). So with 2 young fellas of my own growing up what should I be looking out for.

And is 'rape culture' a meaningful term or is it just an escalation strategy? Never in my life have I heard (& I've been in a fair few 'locker rooms') anything within an asses roar of sexual conduct (of whatever level) without consent. Sure there could be more respect, but that's still a huge jump to 'rape culture'.

Betsy are you the Q in LGBTQ?

In my day the guys who pulled the girls didn't boast about it. Just as those good at sports or academics didn't boast about it. People do not like folk who boast and I guess that is the same today. So what appears to us old fashioned folk as boasting about exploits with the ladies is really no more to the modern fella than saying he had a good pint last night.

Betsy Og said:

Is this a rebranding of how men have always been or has the situation gotten appreciably worse to justify these new tags?

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Seems to me it's a meaningless buzzword invented, or at least co-opted by the field of gender studies, which itself is a toxic pseudo-science. As far as I can see it's just "people behaving badly", which is not the exclusive preserve of either sex.

Duke of Marmalade said:

Betsy are you the Q in LGBTQ?

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I'm not quite sure how to ...errr... take that, other than to say I've always been on the same traditional bus if that answers your question. If its a name related thing then Betsy was a car...years ago...choose wisely as they might say to you in an Indiana Jones film.

On your other point, are you saying that 'encounters' are so routine as to not warrant comment - but wouldn't that suggest we're all sophisticated and mature and soon we'll be like the Swedes jumping in and out of nudey saunas and not a blush between us. Whereas the prevailing commentary is men are gone so bad they are only one step away from clubbing over the head and dragging back to the cave.

Maybe to make it more specific - is there any merit in the term "Rape Culture" in terms of present day Ireland?, and if so how does this manifest itself. I did ye olde wiki search and I wouldn't have thought, for instance, 'slut shaming' was a growing trend in Ireland - in line with your summation, wouldnt it be - "she likes to hook up, so what??" - the era of fallen women and loose women etc I thought was over.

Betsy, I think the fact that you are confused as to whether you are a man or a car puts you definitely in the Q box

On your more serious points I really feel unable to comment, I guess I am out of touch. One thing for sure is that this social media thing is affecting change in society which is not all for the good.

On your more serious points I really feel unable to comment, I guess I am out of touch. One thing for sure is that this social media thing is affecting change in society which is not all for the good.[/QUOTE]
Duke of Marmalade, post: 1562829, member:

Some people who fall for it don't notice,[/QUOTE]

All these phrases are just so pathetic and unserious... seems easier to blame all men rather than properly put away actual evildoers like this... reality is difficult.

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I suppose a Rape Culture is one which tells women not to get raped rather than teaching men not to rape.
It describes a culture in which banter, jokes, comments, images etc are acceptable which normalise sexual violence against women. While that is valid the problem is it conflates sexist comments with violent rape; that which is rude and insensitive with that which is unequivocally abhorrent, violent and criminal.

In the overall context of how the sexes view and understand each other this is interesting. Norah Vincent, a feminist lesbian, lived as a man for 18 months. She said that afterwards she understood that"Men are suffering. They have different problems than women have but they don't have it better. They need our sympathy, they need our love, and they need each other more than anything else. They need to be together."

She also concluded that "I really like being a woman. ... I like it more now because I think it's more of a privilege."

I think the point is that we all have to treat each other with respect and understanding. This is a societal issue rather than a gender one. It applies to race, sex, religion, gender, age and social demographic. we are all part of some minority and confining or defining this as a male versus female issue misses the bigger picture.

Purple said:

I think the point is that we all have to treat each other with respect and understanding.

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The Golden Rule!

While they are teaching children in schools about what consent means can they also teach them what a not guilty verdict means?

I was bought up an RC. I was taught that doing certain things with girls was a Mortal Sin no matter what consent was given. In fact consent was positively bad as both people were dicing with Hell fire for eternity. For a red blooded guy to try and secure consent he was leading her to Hell, far more considerate that he didn't seek such consent. I'm just saying.

This is a very good article that came up on my Twitter feed. The language is fairly 'full on' but the sentiment is good. It's written by a man and maybe that makes it feel less preachy. I concur with the above about treat each other with respect and understanding & could only add - beware the demon drink (& drugs) and know the effect it could have on you and your prospective partner !!!!

http://soberpaddy.com/how-not-to-be-a-rapist/

Betsy Og said:

This is a very good article that came up on my Twitter feed. The language is fairly 'full on' but the sentiment is good. It's written by a man and maybe that makes it feel less preachy. I concur with the above about treat each other with respect and understanding & could only add - beware the demon drink (& drugs) and know the effect it could have on you and your prospective partner !!!!

http://soberpaddy.com/how-not-to-be-a-rapist/

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Seems to be basically about how to have recreational sex without raping. I suppose it's better than nothing. But if you are veering that close to the line that you have to wonder about it, I reckon you're using the other person regardless (even if they're using you back). Sure, you're avoiding downright criminality. Call me innocent or prudish, but I reckon relationships can be so much more than that.

dub_nerd said:

Seems to be basically about how to have recreational sex without raping. I suppose it's better than nothing. But if you are veering that close to the line that you have to wonder about it, I reckon you're using the other person regardless (even if they're using you back). Sure, you're avoiding downright criminality. Call me innocent or prudish, but I reckon relationships can be so much more than that.

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There's a world of a difference between consensual sex between adults and rape. There is also a world of a difference between consensual sex and a relationship. I totally agree on the dangers of alcohol though.

Duke of Marmalade said:

I was bought up an RC. I was taught that doing certain things with girls was a Mortal Sin no matter what consent was given. In fact consent was positively bad as both people were dicing with Hell fire for eternity. For a red blooded guy to try and secure consent he was leading her to Hell, far more considerate that he didn't seek such consent. I'm just saying.

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I was also brought up RC but I didn't get taught that sort of stuff. I think they knew by then that the game was up with spouting all that guff so just went with the whole love and peace line.

In fairness I don't think the debate is about morality per se, if 2 consenting adults want to go at it for pure filthy fun then I don't have an issue with that - and I dont think the feminist machine does either - and I wouldn't be their cheerleader by any means.

As Woody Allen said (no step-daughter jokes now...)- "One night stands are an empty and meaningless experience, but as empty and meaningless experiences go they're a pretty good one." With that sentiment I concur, its all long in the past now, and God knows twas slow to get going, but when I 'hit my stride' I had a bit of fun and have no regrets about it - as did my partners...... notwithstanding my complete ineptitude in the sack.