"Time for reality check on State’s capacity to build social housing"

Well the delayed census is coming up this year which might provide some of this data.
 
MrEarl said:
Trades people can be attracted in from other countries, once we pay them a fair rate and treat them properly. It's not rocket science...
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There is a shortage of housing in most of the developed world. There is a housing affordability problem in most of the developed world. There is a shortage of skilled labour in most of the developed world.
We've inflated the cost of housing by massively increasing the money supply and devaluing labour. Why is anyone surprised that people capable of acquiring skills and who have a good work ethic aren't attracted into jobs that don't generate in income high enough to buy a house?
We are competing internationally for skilled labour. Why would they come here where they will pay extremely high taxes on moderate incomes, where rents are high and infrastructure is bad? There aren't a whole bunch of Eastern European countries joining the EU this time around so we don't have a massive pool of cheap skilled labour to tap into.
 
With lifetime tenancies there's zero chance of that happening. You seem to be suggesting that State resources should be managed in such a way that they provide the greatest public good. You absolute monster. Una Mullally would describe you as a Neo-Con.
 
There's lots of potential labour, if we are prepared to look for it... Even if we exclude Europe (a bit nuts, but anyway), are you telling me that no one from the likes of Afghanistan, Syria, or various African countries where millions of people have been displaced, don't have any trades?

Also, I've yet to meet a "poor" tradesman - cash is still king, when it comes to the trades. Most tradesmen are off doing "nixers" most days of the week.

Ireland has some specific issues relating to incompetance and suspected skullduggery, which could easily be fixed, if we were prepared to address those issues - but in true Irish form, we won't - we'll just have a moan about them from time to time, then sweep them back under the rug for another while. Until that changes, we'll continue to have widespread housing problems
 
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I've no idea how to answer that, mostly because I haven't a clue what you're saying.
 
Do you really think a tradesperson from Afghanistan, Syria, or various African countries can built to Irish regulations and standards? Irish tradespeople can hardly do it.
How do they get here?
Do they bring their families?
Where do they live?
Do we send them back in 5-10 years when we are finished with them? Do we really want to behave like the Swiss and exploit generations of migrant workers from poor countries?
MrEarl said:
Also, I've yet to meet a "poor" tradesman - cash is still king, when it comes to the trades. Most tradesmen are off doing "nixers" most days of the week.
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That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation. Are you just referring to those in the building trades? Even if you are most work long hard days and wouldn't be in a position to do nixers "most days of the week". Even with the nixers and long hours they work we've still got a labour shortage.
Every country has that. We've nothing special on that front.
MrEarl said:
Until that changes, we'll continue to have widespread housing problems
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Are you suggesting that is the cause of the housing shortage?
 
odyssey06 said:
Also at the flick of a switch... the same pool of workers need to:
Fix the thousands of houses in Donegal falling apart
Renovate the vacant houses in cities
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Not to forget the impending fire safety works required on virtually every apartment complex in the country. Just went through a very painful sale delayed by fire safety issues; there’s a storm coming here that is going to generate a huge amount of work for the building trade.
 
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Using the same people to upgrade and repaid propertied as are used to build them is like using mechanics to build car engines and panel beaters to make car bodies. It's stupid and shows just how dysfunctional the sector it.
Before anyone says "It's not the same", I know that, that's why I said it's like using them, not that it's the same as using them. The amount of labour input in construction is just nuts.
 
Just wondering what period is the apartment complex from? 90s? Celtic Tiger? Later?
 
odyssey06 said:
Just wondering what period is the apartment complex from? 90s? Celtic Tiger? Later?
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Celtic Tiger era. The more people I spoke to though the more you realise how wide spread issues are. We had to do a cash sale in the end because banks are asking for Fire Risk Assessments once there’s any hint of issues, once that happens there’s no getting out of taking action to remediate. Rightly so, but when the costs are so high and OMC’s have such weak powers to extract money from owners, it’s possible the works may never get completed and non-cash sales become impossible or if the issues are particularly bad the building has to be closed (eg. Priory Hall).
 
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One of the issues is that once you start renovating a property, you seem to be on the hook to bring the property up to modern specs including BER.

Some of these vacant properties could be brought back to the market quickly, and to a standard at least as good as the occupied property next door... But bringing it up to that spec is a whole other ball game in time and money.
 
Purple said:
The amount of labour input in construction is just nuts.
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You have made this point in many threads.

Is house building using modern manufacturing methods practiced on a major scale anywhere in the world.
 
I wonder could we (the Irish people) not be a little more ambitious in this regard. Yes housing is a problem throughout the world with skyrocketing prices, but do we really think that the inclusion of all social housing within the private market is likely to improve those prices?

Could we not partner with a large German/Polish/Austrian house builder to setup an Irish subsidiary? The staff could be trained in their home country and then work in Ireland tax free as an incentive. 10% of the final house price could be held back based on performance - deliver early you get the 10% within a year, for each month of delays you hold back 2% per year.

I think worrying about the costs of building these houses is irrelevant - the state can borrow billions of euros at 0 - 0.25%, so why not just fix housing. The cost of not fixing housing will be far far greater and might well limit our ability to take advantage of brexit as the only English speaking country in Europe. All those multinationals coming to Ireland need somewhere for their staff to live, so the state shouldn’t be competing in the private market further limiting supply.

This might be controversial, but if the average cost of building social housing in Dublin is €300k, couldn’t we build somewhere cheaper. We have one of the most sparsely populated countries in Europe, just look out your window at the green fields. Personally I live where I can afford, which is not D4 and yet there seems to be an expectation that anyone who wants to live there in social housing should be accommodated. What’s wrong with the other 25 counties? An acre of farmland is €3-5k in many counties, which fits at least 8 houses. Besides there’s no reason why a state funded foreign subsidiary would need to pay the 50% cost of each house in taxes.

When we’ve tried every single option and nothing has worked, then I’ll accept that fixing the housing problem is impossible. Until then let’s be bold, ambitious and break some heads!
 
I have no doubt this will be the future, but at present it is one house rented at half price.

And worse again it's in Holland. They like to build weird for the sake of it. See here.

Cube house - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I have been in them, while they look cute they are utterly ridiculous.

This may provide houses in Dublin when the current generation of first time buyers children are looking for homes.

After the planners get their heads around them.

After BATU accepts them.

After an Irish housing manufacturing industry comes into being.
 
cremeegg said:
After an Irish housing manufacturing industry comes into being.
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We have a lot of small builders of one-off homes, but Glenveigh are one of Irelands biggest homebuilders and they already do a lot of off-site manufacturing, they've recently bought the old Braun factory to increase their timber frame kit manufacturing capacity.
 
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