Threatened nurses strike


Just curious Purple - Any views on the consultants reluctance to accept new contracts which expect them to see public patients in public hospitals when the public is paying their salary?
 
oopsbuddy said:
staffing levels in the health service have increased by 67% (40'000 people) in the last 10 years.

How would that compare to the increase in the country's population over the same period?
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More to the point, a significant proportion of that increase is accounted for by administrative/managerial appointments, as opposed to medical — how do [broken link removed] compare with nurses', and by how much have they risen over the same period?
 
bluseter and shout as the INO does its pretty clear who has the better union representing them. no noise, no feathers ruffled, no public to panic, no td's to ruffle. my hat off to these guys for a job well done. the union guys that is.
 
RainyDay said:
Just curious Purple - Any views on the consultants reluctance to accept new contracts which expect them to see public patients in public hospitals when the public is paying their salary?
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I think it's disgraceful. I heard two of them on the radio this morning (RTE1 and Newstalk) suggesting that they all worked long hours and the public supported them. I have three small children and have been no stranger to hospitals over the last few years. On three occasions we have had a child ready for discharge on Saturday morning but have had to wait 'till Monday afternoon for the consultants ward round to be discharged. This is common practice, according to friends who are hospital doctors. It is also a monumental waste of time and money.
Why are they not rostered so that there is on site 24 hour cover? Why do they not work weekends? Why is it OK to drag their public hospital team in for 6.30am or 6.45am to do a ward round (and wake up sick patients) just so they can beat the traffic and get to the Blackrock for 9.30? Why are all junior doctors terrified to phone the consultant on call at night (and therefore almost never do)?
It is all about money for the consultants and for them to suggest otherwise is rubbish. I have yet to hear any of them explain why the tax payer is paying for a secretary and rooms in a public hospital that they use for private patients. I have yet to hear any of them explain how there is no conflict of interest when they have private and public patients on the same ward, the private ones generate an income but the public ones don't, and yet the consultants say they make all decisions based only on clinical need. What purification ritual do they go through that removes the temptations that the rest of us have?
 
Gordanus said:
Purple:
You mean earn less than 28,174 ? with a degree??? and just how long a scale would you reccommend?? Please do look up the pay scales of other professions so we can see how they compare.
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€28k is an excellent salary for someone straight out of university; plenty of graduates have starting salaries well below that
 
So who covers the breaks?

Gordanus said:
You mean earn less than 28,174 ? with a degree??? and just how long a scale would you reccommend?? Please do look up the pay scales of other professions so we can see how they compare.
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Primary school teachers start on €19’641 (see [broken link removed] for details)
 
Originally Posted by Purple
Why are they not rostered so that there is on site 24 hour cover
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An interesting observation in relation to hospital consultants.

One of the efficiences suggested on the Gerry Robinson programme (about the NHS in the UK) was that the operational hours for the use of operation theatres, XRay departments, laboratories etc. should not be restricted to an 8 hour day, Monday to Friday. In addition to consultants, this would require co-operation and extended working hours for nurses, porters, radiographers, laboratory and administration staff. In fact it would require changed work practices for most if not all hospital personnel. This makes sense since it would more fully utilise high cost personnel and equipment in hospitals and would undoubtedly reduce waiting lists.

But what would the representative unions have to say about such a recommendation and what would it cost?
 
sherib said:
But what would the representative unions have to say about such a recommendation and what would it cost?
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If it doubled or tripled throughput within the same capital infrastructure I don't see why substantial pay increases would not be given for those staff that work the antisocial hours.
At the moment billions of Euro worth of facilities and machinery idle 50% - 66% of the time. Given that a huge proportion of health service staff are clerical and most of these could remain on standard hours, as could outpatient services, I don’t see why there would be a huge increase in wage cost.
 
Originally Posted by Purple
I don't see why substantial pay increases would not be given for those staff that work the antisocial hours.
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I don’t see why there would be a huge increase in wage cost.
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Isn't that a contradiction?

AFAIK one of the reasons for the proposed increase of 1,500 in consultant numbers (apart from the obvious benefits re decision making and experience) is to reduce the enormous costs of paying overtime to the non-consultant hospital doctors who are reported as having to work anything from 80-100+ hours per week which increases their salaries by up to an extra €100,000 p.a.

Since NCHDs basic salary isn't enormous, I can't see the multiplicity of other professionals being satisfied with less than pro rata what has been paid in overtime to the NCHDs. There are no cheap fixes when it comes to paying professionals in the health service.
 
Purple said:
So who covers the breaks?
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Dear heavens, the nurses don't go on breaks all at the same time! They do it in shifts! They go alone! If two staff nurses are on duty and two nurses aides with them, the two staff nurses don't go on breaks together! If only one staff nurse on duty, she gets to take her break on the ward, in the office! If necessary she'll call another ward where they'll have a spare staff nurse to get her to cover! I think you are being deliberately obtuse here. Why do you dislike nurses so much?
 
Hi all,
I left nursing about 10 years ago to study programming, after collage I worked in a large hospital. What I was most amzed at were all new management roles for nursing and how there were more managers wanering corridors than there were nurses in wards.

I also observed within that time that the quality of care had not increased..

Do I think my former colleagues deserve a pay rise ??? When thing improve the do - until then no.. IMHO
 
Increase in pay for a decrease in hours? Sheer madness! They should get 0% change in pay for a 0% change in hours.

I've justt spent a hour discussing this with a fellow who's parents are both nurses (one a strong trade unionist) and i've formed the following opinion...

If I were in charge, this is what i'd counter offer the nurses...

Package
  • A 20% pay rise over 4 years (in addition to what they've already got)
  • A once off change of work practices payment averaging €10,000 each
  • Double Paternity leave
  • Ability to keep working till older ages
  • Performance linked bonuses/pay rises
In Return for..
  • Retirement age of Psychiatric Nurses increased to 60 and General Nurses to 67 with a health check at those ages and (if passed) the option to keep working for another 3 years
  • Maintain 39hr working week
  • Reduce mileage/travel expenses to be in line with private sector (currently between 2 and 3 times greater)
  • New discipline system (including fines) for repeated breaches of hygine guidelines (MRSA should not exist)
  • A new system where nurses must scan in (by fingerprint) at start and end of shift
  • Pension to reflect the exact lenght of service based on hours (including overtime) rather than years
  • Punishment for repeated punctuality issues
  • If you exceed X number of days off, leave, sick days etc. over a three year period, you should be placed on a "monitoring list" - no punishment - just a way to monitor for abuses of the system
  • Lenght of service salery increases subject to rejection for misconduct, poor work ethic etc. - make it policy to reject a handful of increases regularly so that rather than expect regular increase, nurses must actively earn them by good performance - only lazy nurses or ones wishing to hide can object to this!
  • Extend Care Assistants/Assistant Nurses to cover ALL the work done by nurses that does'nt utilise their qualification - why do we pay well qualified expensive nurses to sweep floors? 100% of a nurses time should be spent on the things that their specifically trained to do. In private industry, do Accountants hover their own offices and get paid for it?!
  • A massive slowdown on hiring to reflect the reduced need for nurses brought about by cutting their work areas. A large increase in hiring less skilled lower cost workers for tasks such as sweeping floors, making beds etc.

In addition to the above i'd like to shake up all staff issues in the health board (particularly massive cuts in the clerical end of the board), open operating theatres from 6am till midnight seven days a week (why fret about paying a couple hundred grand a year to run a theatre that cost millions to build?) and to systemise and automate things like appointment reminders wherever possible. As was said on the late late by Gerry Robinson - we need professional managers to run this very complex system at the top end and to run it with the efficency of a business. I'd be happy to pay a salery of €4m a year to attract a top manager if he/she was given full government backing to complete reconfigure the system.
 
Thanks Purple... althought I must admit I'm sitting here waiting to be completely savaged by some nurses union rep!
 
I am astounded by the diatribe posted recently by CGorman - it would be hard to consider many of the points raised as anything more than a KGB type rant. Where does one begin? Of course I should remember this is a letting of steam forum and perhaps should be disregarded.
  • Why only reduce mileage/expenses for nurses? Why not for the whole of the public and civil service? Similarily for extended retirement age.
  • Why double only paternity leave - why not double maternity leave until such time as men start having babies
  • Has anyone ever seen a qualified nurse sweep hospital floors?
There is no dispute about the need to employ first rate suitably qualified managers (and not those who have come up through the administrative system as currently obtains) - but there's nothing original in that suggestion.
Originally Posted by CGorman
If I were in charge,.....
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Thank goodness we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship
PS If I were picky I would draw attention to the frequent mis-spellings; I choose not to do this out of sympathy and knowing that my command of the english language is above average.

FYI, I'm neither a nurse nor a trade union employee.
 
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sherib said:
[*]Why only reduce mileage/expenses for nurses? Why not for the whole of the public and civil service? Similarily for extended retirement age.
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The discussion pertains to nurses, therfore in the above I dealt with nurses only - for the record I believe large parts of the public/civil service need similer changes.

sherib said:
[*]Why double only paternity leave - why not double maternity leave until such time as men start have babies
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Paternity Leave is only 3 days. Maternity leave is 154 days (+). Obviously Woman should physically be entititled to substantially more, but 3 days for new fathers is a bit stingy, a proper week would be better... amazing that anyone would argue against this! (Oh, and if you want to be really picky, "Men start have babies" is embarassingly poor english... and thats speaking as a Dyslexic!)

sherib said:
[*]Has anyone ever seen a qualified nurse sweep hospital floors?
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Actually my friends mother does it all the time, as do many nursing staff. BTW: When I say sweep the floor I extend this to activities like making beds, and very simple tasks like opening curtains, which could easily be done by other staff at a lower cost.

sherib said:
...raised as anything more than a KGB type rant.
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What a foolish comparision to draw! I suggest work practice reforms adopted from efficent private sector capitalist methods and you compare me to an a member of the secret police who worked for one of the most powerful communist nations in history! At very least you could have likened my attitude to a true capitalist like O'Leary!

Sherib, perhaps you enjoy taking the other side in debates purely for the thrill of a good arguement - but on this surely you can agree: the Irish Health Care System is overcomplicated, highly inefficent, consquentally overstaffed in many areas and failing miserably to fulfill its objectives. This is primarely due to inertia, entrenched aged work practices, poor implementation of reforms, poor management, failure to adopt modern IT systems and complete and utter failure to utilise existing resources (huge areas of NEW hospital wings have been unused for as much as the past decade).

It needs change NOW.

Might I add 3 of my grandparents were nurses and fully 13 of my aunts and uncles are nurses!
 

Agree fully with this. A month after birth, maternity/paternity leave should be combined into parental leave and the mother and father should be free to allocate the remaining time off between themselves.
 
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