Theft from Fathers Account by Brother after Death

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Omega1

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Hi All,

Was on here years ago but my account was closed so Im back to 1 post :)

Not looking for legal advice, but just peoples general opinion.

My father passed away last year. He was unwell for sometime and my older brother had access to all banking details etc. On the day he died my brother transferred money from several bank accounts. Myself and sister found out later that it was in the thousands. There was also some cash in a safe in the house that went missing, but much harder to prove it was my older brother.

Long and the short of it, at the time the family decided to let it go. But then my older brother scared off the executor so both me and my younger sister are now executors and have the power to decide on things.

My older brother has since become very difficult to deal with and has been calling me and having relatives call me to release money even before the estate is settled. I have been under huge stress with all of this and I had to go to my doctor.

I guess what Im looking for advice on is, should I deduct the thousands that was taken from my father after he passed from the final payment to my older brother. I feel it is only right and the only way to have some sort of justice for what they did.

tl:dr - Brother stole money, should I make him pay for it.

Thanks everyone.

Omega 1
 
As executors you have a lot of control and a lot of responsibility. I would start by putting everything in writing to your older brother. The issue of the money is difficult as if your older brother was given permission by your father to access his A/C when alive then he can say he was entitled to remove money. Unless you want to go down a legal route you may have to accept the money as gone. Take some legal advice before you act but do put matters in writing. Good luck with your endeavours.
 
Thanks very much for that. Appreciated. My father had told my sister that the money was for her. My brother was never told he could take it. I dont think my brother can do much legally as it would highlight the fact that they took the money after death which would be a serious matter as I understand. I take your point to put things in writing. I think he needs the money so if I ask him to sign a waiver to any claims on the estate and a final cheque will be issued, then that will be that.
 
What did the will state? If your father had not stipulated that the money was for your sister then surely that cannot be proven. How did your brother have access to the bank accounts? Was he a full joint account holder? If so then he is legally entitled to access funds even after your father's death assuming the signing authority was 'only one to sign'. I was a joint account holder with my father who passed this year. As a joint account holder I still had full access to the funds after his death and they don't form part of his estate. It was very underhand to clear out money from your dad's account but legally there may not be much you can do if his name was also on the account. If he was only a third party signatory that is a different matter and you should take it further.
 
Thanks Marsha. The will stated that all property/money to be distributed equally to the three of us. The bank account was solely in my fathers name. My brother used to do some online payments and that so had access to the details. I dont even think he was a signatory.

One path is to just deduct the money from him and close it off. Another is to pursue them, but I dont think this will produce much except more fees for the solicitors. The fact that funds were taken without permission is more the issue than the amount. We want him to accept that he knowingly stole the money but this seems unlikely. Bullies are notorious for not apologising.
 
No, imo, it wont be the end of it. How did he have access to your fathers Acc before he passed away in the first place. Did your father have trust in him to look after his financial affairs?
You say your Father said the money was for your sister, was it your sister who told you this..

You could go the whole hog here and tell your brother you are taking legal advice to recover all funds taken since the passing of your father, will it be worth it? If it were me, and since your family were prepared to let it go originally, and you say he needs the money, which to me means he is probably down on his luck, Id let it go, but not without letting him know you and your sister are aware of his actions. After that, its down to his own moral judgment.

And finally, ask yourself, what would your father have suggested you do in this situation.
 
This post will be deleted if not edited immediately he had some neck so! Needless to say he'd be in trouble for taking the money after your dad died. The likelihood of that money still being in his account is probably slim if he felt the need to take it so quickly. Has the bank put a stop on the account since to prevent any more being taken? A legal waiver might be best option and deduct the amount he stole, if yourself and your sister are happy enough to leave it at that. Don't think I'd be having him over for dinner anytime soon!
 
LS400 said:
No, imo, it wont be the end of it. How did he have access to your fathers Acc before he passed away in the first place. Did your father have trust in him to look after his financial affairs?
You say your Father said the money was for your sister, was it your sister who told you this..

You could go the whole hog here and tell your brother you are taking legal advice to recover all funds taken since the passing of your father, will it be worth it? If it were me, and since your family were prepared to let it go originally, and you say he needs the money, which to me means he is probably down on his luck, Id let it go, but not without letting him know you and your sister are aware of his actions. After that, its down to his own moral judgment.

And finally, ask yourself, what would your father have suggested you do in this situation.
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Thanks LS400. My father trusted him to make transactions as he was unable to. But my brother is a bit of a bully and there were times that he got funds in questionable circumstances i.e. when dad was semi-conscious.

it was my sister who said about the funds. But I have just found (in the last 5 mins) out that the bank account was a joint one between my sister and dad. So if I dont take my sister for her word, I can make an assumption my dad made it a joint account in case the worst happened.

We were prepared to originally let it go. But my brother is becoming more and more aggressive. Scaring the executor off, pressuring us to send money etc that we feel it was premature of us to just let it go. We were grieving after all. We also ignored the cash which may have been taken. We have requested bank statements to double check if any more funds were taken. If it transpires that there was it will be an easy decision to make to withold funds from him.

He is not short on cash and lives quite well. He wants the funds to buy another property (has 3 already). So its not that he is down on his luck.

What would my dad think. Well he wouldnt want us to sue our brother, but likewise, what they took ultimately was meant to be given to me and my sister too, so I have to respect that wish.

[sorry im limited to a reply every 10 minutes]

Hi Marsha, yes the accounts were frozen, but as i understand this only happened a few weeks later. we thought it was automatic. Yes a waiver and a good luck might be the way...
 
Omega1 said:
But then my older brother scared off the executor so both me and my younger sister are now executors and have the power to decide on things.
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What do you mean by this? Did the original executor formally renounce the role of executor, as provided for by the Succession Act 1965? If not, he / she is probably still the executor. Also you just can't assume the role of executor or co-executors. If an executor renounces his/her role, the rules of the High Court, in particular, rule 5(6) specify the order of priority of who can extract the grant of probate http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0/af593c78c54b621980256d2b0046b394?OpenDocument. Have you been appointed executors as per these rules. And, another point, you don't really have "the power to decide things". Your power, obligation really, is to administer the estate as provided for in the will and in accordance with the relevant legislation.
 
Thanks PMU.

Basiclaly yes, my brother pressured the appointed executor to formally renounce. My father had a good friend who cared for him a lot and said that he wanted him to have a few things after death. But my brother twisted this around that the executor was trying to steal things so they decided to leave the process to avoid the hassle and been accused of theft.

Yes we have been appointed administrators, signed the bond etc. You are right about "power to decide" It is our obligation, but discretion can be applied depending on the circumstances. We could decide to ignore the theft, or not. The process shouldnt be used to teach a life lesson to my older brother, but at the same time, he knowingly stole money from a dead mans account. Legally, either path can be followed. I was just looking for peoples personal views on what they would do.
 
You are sure he didn't use the money to cover funeral costs including say drinks and finger food during visits to the house ? If the amount is quite small in the greater scheme of things i.e. if he took 5k but the estate is worth 300k I would tend to leave it. But if it was 10k and the estate is only worth 50k then I would be inclined to pursue it.
 
Just cover yourself legally because an executer has to indemnify the estate they are executate
 
Thanks Elcato. No, 100%. The funeral costs were just recently paid out of the estate. Its not the amount that bothers me. Its the act itself. And for it to go unpunished. Theft is theft. Not yet sure on the amount, but it could be 5 figures.

Its not for personal gain, I would gladly donate the money if it arose that I was pursuing it for myself. Its just my brother bullied my father in his last few years, took control of everything, including health decisions (which proved to be fatal). So there is some emotion mixed in with this. I feel that if we dont make a point of deducting what was stolen, its another case of my brother getting his way and pissing all over the family again.[sorry for the language.]

Understand John Luc. Although I cant see my brother making a legal argument that he is entitled to the money he stole :) But fair point.
 
He was entitled to his share but not in the way he took part of it. I personally would not let him away with it. At the very least deduct what he stole from the total amount owed to him and do up a statement of account to that effect when you have all monies gathered from your dad's estate, and are in a position to distribute same.
 
Thanks Marsha. Yes, by no means would I go against my fathers wishes and not give what is due to everyone. But I think you are right, a full and final statement. Also a waiver. And just close it off and try and move on with life.

I really hope no one makes me their executor. Its by no means an honour :)
 
You seem clued in and reliable, I agree close it off and move on, I have some direct experience where eldest was executor, joint accounts opened with parent, extra deposited in eldest son joint account with parent to cover funeral costs, all explained to eldest who by the way is very comfortable, what happened afterwards.....eldest was executor, kept the extra funds, estate paid for funeral then refused to provide siblings with accounting of estate when requested by siblings on the basis he was not obliged to do so, now we as siblings know he charged out mileage and anything else he could against the estate, what a stand up guy, there are many of them out there....

Fact is he is now isolated, no moral compass, no skin off siblings nose in the long run the leopard showed the spots all in the family knew he had.
 
Wow, thats pretty bad. I wouldnt dream of charging any expenses for mileage and that. Cant even count the amount of credit used on the phone to various people like revenue and that. My brother has been quite cunning in the whole thing and a master of propaganda. He isnt really working so he can devote every minute of the day to playing the victim and badmouthing people. I guess I thought he would change after my fathers death, but your right, a leopard doesnt change his spots.
 
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